sanjuro

Adrian. If I may, I would like to introduce a couple of things into your thinking on this subject. I shall do it in plain english, and none of it is meant as a criticism, but rather as an observation. Someone who has had collecting experience in something like coins, is not necessarily well prepared for the variety that is nihonto. Its a bit like a family doctor thinking he would make a great brain surgeon. He may in fact become a great brain surgeon, but not without a great deal of study. Coins are mass produced and authenticity is relatively easy to establish, whereas each nihonto is unique. A genuine coin in good condition is worth a given price. You may get an authentic well preserved nihonto that despite condition is still not a good example. Previous collecting experience in an unrelated field does not help much when it comes to nihonto. Other have hinted at it, but the fact is, nihonto are a lousy investment. If you approach this like an accountant, you will get badly burned. If you buy a low quality sword or a medium quality sword, all each of these will teach you is about low or medium quality swords, and you will not get an appreciation of good quality nihonto from owning either. If you want to study koshirae then buy koshirae. if you want to study blades then buy blades. At the level of your budget you are not likely to get quality examples of both in the one package. Beware, you are in that target group of would be collectors of nihonto that is beloved by the fake peddlers, and not all of them are Chinese by any means. There are fakes out there that are not cheap and would fool many a speculative collector. This is why you need to know what it is you want to buy and to have enough appreciation of the subject to know what is and what isnt desirable. You probably dont want to hear any of this, and without doubt it will come across as negative and not encouraging to you. It is however the truth, and if nothing else I owe you that rather than vague, purile but politically correct encouragement. First accumulate some knowledge and decide what you are trying to achieve, then by all means equipped with that knowledge search for something that advances you toward whatever goal you have set yourself. The last thing you want is to go out and buy something for the sake of ownership then come back here only to find that what you have is poor quality and therefore useless and valueless, or as a worst case scenario - fake. JMHO

This is a private view only, but given Ron's statement, when one sees particularly pine trees depicted on sukashi tsuba I am reminded of the appearance of a bonsai pine. I wouldnt be surprised if a bonsai had been used as a basic model for this type of design. The same could be said of cherry blossoms and trees. The gnarled appearance of such trees in these designs is more common on bonsai than in nature. Never seen one with the pot included in the design though.

OK.... Now, often one sees a tsuba that has no hitsuana but is obviously (by the way the design is oriented) meant to be mounted on a sword worn as a katana, described as a daito tsuba. If the design were the other way up then it would be described as a tachi tsuba of course. With hitsu ana a similar tsuba is often designated a katana tsuba. The above is not an absolute, but rather a frequent occurrence. Is there then a difference in tosogu nomenclature in this regard?

Now this is going to sound like a newbie question so bear with me. Is there a definition of a daito as opposed to a katana. One sees swords variously described as daito or katana and sometimes as both. I have always thought a daito is a tachi blade mounted as a katana. Usually it seems they do not have kogai or kozuka and are often seen in handachi mounts. On the other hand they are also validly described as katana. I dont particularly want to get into a discussion about Edo period definitions of swords based on blade length, but is there a definition of daito that does not allow for semantics. Is it just alternative nomenclature or something more substantial?

Brandon. Grey Doffin sells the best flash cards. Shoot off a PM to him and I'm sure he can help you.

Patrick. Would you buy something that looks suspiciously like someones polishing project gone horribly wrong. even for $19?????

Man its been awhile since I saw a blade in such lousy condition after its been polished. Delamination, Kizu. This piece of junk has it all. It looks as if the hamon (or rather where the hamon should be) is about to part company with the rest of the blade. So much for amatuer polishing. .

Alex. Please check your PM's. There is a red light telling you that you have one at the top of the page. You will find a full explanation in there. Its not and never was about you old chap. :D

Just to follow on from this, I have on two occasions submitted blades to the NBTHK. They came back thankfully with hozon and tokubetsu hozon papers respectively which is pretty much what I expected in each case, so I have no axe to grind as far as the shinsa result is concerned. I must say however that in both cases it was a strictly mercenary experience in as much as the NBTHK seemed to be merely going through the motions in order to get the fee. It was a pretty cold calculated sort of transaction. I put this down to what the Japanese think is the correct way to do business........ Business being the operative word and sole purpose. Consequently I do not look forward with any warmth to the next submission I make, knowing there will be little in the way of communication and virtually nothing in the way of what we in the west would consider service. I stress this is only my own experience and my impressions of the process. Alex. I'm sorry but I havent the faintest idea of what you are rabbiting on about.

Thanks Chris. I was hoping you might jump in and lend some of your insights on this subject. Note: Let us fervently hope that in this instance at least, your comments are not viewed as a threat to someone else's self perception of pre- eminence in this field. :D

Alex. Yes, swordsmiths are human, but they generally take the making of a blade very seriously. It is also the work of many days to produce a blade, its not simply a matter of tumbling out of bed after a night on the sauce, yawn and fart then turn to the wife and say "Oh well, off to work love, I think I'll churn out a blade today" sort of thing. I think I'm right in saying that a smith is usually able to work in a number of styles quite confidently, and that a badly forged or substandard blade is more often destroyed, rather than simply given to an apprentice to sign. Remember, a signature only confirms the maker, his work even badly done, is identifiable in many other ways. As far as signatures are concerned, They are akin to handwriting in that though two signatures may not appear as identical, the way the ideograms are formed however is instinctive and a matter of the personal style of the smith. Therefore the way rather than the content does not differ greatly. A substandard sword may rather be left unsigned however. The trade simply doesn't work the way you might imagine. It is firstly tradition bound and a swordsmith wants only his best work seen, and obviously his signature goes on the blade he has forged with a great deal of pride. Not something you do if the hand is a little unsteady. Most gimei it is safe to say are deliberate forgeries. It is however the ones that are not intended as forgeries and the reasons they have the gimei, that gives us reason to pause before removing what may be an integral part of the sword's history. At the other end of the scale, there is also the commercial consideration of the swords worth either with or without a signature, and it is this that has given rise to many gimei being placed on mumei blades, since a signed blade is generally more expensive than an unsigned one. On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong and someone who has actually 'been there' can put me right.

And you know what the sorry part of this situation is? Theres no way you can find out by submitting to shinsa until you remove the gimei. (if it is gimei). Even then, the shinsa team will not in all likelihood pin it down to the actual smith, and all you will get is some nebulous comment about the school it belongs to. Not real good value for money is it? Why I wonder when they pink slip something as gimei do they not give some idea as to who actually made the sword. Is it a case of can't or just simply won't????????

Concur. For those of us following the thread, the constant carping becomes rather tedious. More threads than this one have become hard to maintain interest in because of it.

Hi Ron. Thanks...... I think. More luck than brains eh? I'll have you know this was a strategic purchase. (in other words I virtually stole it). If I admitted otherwise it would indicate that any newbie could go on ebay and score a decent bargain. Now, we dont want a whole generation of newbies having their hopes and aspirations of finding bargains on ebay fired up do we? Just between you and I, it was more luck than anything else, but I do have a something of an eye for a decent bit of steel. In this instance it seems to have paid off. :D

Curran. Alright then! This is a good thing, yes? I'm looking forward to getting this piece in hand. Its nice to know you can have a small win occasionally on ebay. God knows there's so much crap and fakes on there these days.

Since patina is an issue regarding type with this tsuba, I have included another pic from the listing taken at an angle that is less prone to the flare of the flash photography. Maybe it will help.

I'm just throwing this out there for the sake of this discussion, and I guess playing devil's advocate to some degree. In the long run the decision to remove a gimei signature will ultimately rest upon the merits of the individual sword. How important is the signature in the general scheme of things? Whilst not demeaning the works of recognised masters, a good blade is a good blade regardless of whose signature appears on the nakago, and in the analysis, did you buy the signature or the sword? A fine example of a swordsmiths work with a gimei signature (if you're sure its gimei) is not as desirable as a similar example that is mumei. However, is an attribution by a shinsa panel more desirable or in some cases more accurate so far after the fact, than simply accepting a sword for what it is. Something that has bothered me in the past, is typified by some of the smiths in the Masahide school whose works are often pink slipped as gimei, in that the smith having worked in the style of an old master then signs that old masters name as a tribute rather than a deliberate forgery. Some of course are deliberate forgeries and both are equally gimei in the eyes of a shinsa panel. In the case of a tribute however, the signature in a way belongs on the sword. Would its removal be warranted though it forms part of the sword's history?

Thanks guys! Its nice to know my instincts arent too far off the mark. I'm gambling on the patina side of things, and like all of you, suspect that the flash photography has 'shinied up' the usually darker patina of tembo work. At less than $80 US, its not a huge gamble and I thought rather worth taking. Ownership now brings up another question. Being late Edo, and somewhat deliberately 'crude', were these tsuba considered as practical tsuba? Curran. No steak on the grill... Its too damned hot to cook at the moment. (38 degrees celcius). Maybe after sundown when the temp gets below 30. Chris. As you probably know, a 'shrimp on the barbie' is a line from an ad. Its actually a dig at the Americans. We dont have shrimp in Australia, we have prawns. Shrimp are little things, our prawns are rather large. Anything smaller than our prawns we call krill. (or bait) :D

OK, This is where the tosogu guys get to snicker at my naivety, and tell me what a twit I am. I bought this on good 'ol fleabay (Yes, occasionally I descend into foolishness), because it took my eye and appealed to me. I dig old iron and this looked to be not a bad piece. My first impression was Edo? Tembo?, but what the hell do I know? Now I ask what have I bought? No need to be gentle, I can handle dissappointment and criticism. It didnt cost the earth. Think of me as a newbie in respect of tsuba. Dimensions are 84x76mm. Thickness by proportion seems to be 3-3.5mm at seppa dai. Now let the night of the long knives begin.........

Two questions I always ask myself. Am I buying this sword because the papers say it is a fine sword, or am I buying it because of what I can see in it? Do I see more in the sword because it has been submitted to shinsa and has papers. Am I buying this sword to sell it again and the papers will possibly help realise a better price? Is it good to have a sword with papers that verify its authenticity? Of course it is. Is it necessary?.......... That depends entirely on your point of view, and we all differ to a greater or lesser degree.

There are so many aspects to this question. There are instances where a sword has been estimated/judged as being gimei, has then had the supposed gimei removed only to find on resubmission to shinsa it is attributed to the very name that has been removed. We must bear in mind that when a sword is judged as gimei it is only the best guess of some very educated people. I mean this as no criticism, but the plain fact is, they can be wrong. Having said that, shinsa is the best way we have at our disposal to evaluate swords and their authenticity. It is not however infallible nor is it perfect. The papers that are issued against any sword are only as good as the organisation and the shinsa team that issued them. I own papered swords. Those papers are kept in a safe, and I never look at them. The swords are another matter. I look at them frequently and they tell me what I need to know about them. The papers in the safe can only at best confirm what I see in the sword itself. How important are the papers to you personally?

Hi. Just a bit of logic re the upside down kanji plaque. The little plaque looks as though it is held by a single pin. The circular scratch could be as a result of the little plaque swivelling on its pin and having become fixed in its inverted position. There seems to be a corresponding mark on the the face of the short central upright. Always give the simple answer a chance! (even if it sounds dumb when you say it)

Paul. Congrats on producing a study on what is firstly a difficult feature to show photographically, and second on illustrating the beauty of koto steel. 800 year old Yamashiro steel is awesome. For the Koto guys out there, Thankyou.

Christophe. For what my opinion is worth bearing in mind I know comparatively little about tsuba generally, this appears quite modern and therefore I say most likely a fake.

Thanks guys for your interest and your valuable input. David. It was the yagyu tsuba feature of the rectangular nakago ana that first made me question the the rather hasty assumption that all such tsuba were in fact naginata pieces. Paul. Thanks for posting that nagoro tsuba. It seems to be a largish example on first impression, and I cant really imagine it as anything but an example intended for use on a nagamaki. The wear marks on the seppa dai also have that wider oval characteristic of a naginata seppa as opposed to the longer oval of a sword seppa of similar vintage. As you state, the only non triangular nakago ana occur on tsuba for yari and those are fairly rare. The yagyu tsuba seem to be the only ones that have these rectangular ana and also the example posted by Paul which was to accomodate a reversed mounting. Christian. I'm still wading through that booklist and the links you posted . Theres a lot of info there to get through. Gilles. In support of your thick wakizashi tsuba statement I have included here pics of 2 of my naginata tsuba. They seem to support your theory. Other side. This iron Tsuba is associated with a Momoyama Naginata signed by Shimada Hirosuke. It was originally covered with black urushi which an enterprising dealer saw fit to remove. There are however some remnants of the original urushi on the mimi and lobe surface. Yamagane naginata tsuba, also once black lacquered. By chance it fits also the naginata by Hirosuke, Whilst it is Tanto/Wakizashi size, It is too thick and the nakago ana too large and proportionally robust for a wakizashi or tanto.