Tcat

Marvelous collection Thierry! Thank for sharing.

Hi Justin, the question of investment is a complicated one and as posters commented tends to be in a constant state of flux related to vogue, national and international economies etc. I think in the long run 'high-medium' to high quality nihonto and tosogu will always have a market, unless there is some kind of armageddon. Two things currently control the price of Nihonto - 1 The Japanese economy, 2 Collector interest outside of Japan. These two factors operate in very different ways, however I think that the high-point for Nihonto in general as seen in the 80s won't be experienced again in our lifetimes; though it may increase somewhat from its current point. My anecdotal experience says that you certainly can't rely on ANY one piece to increase in value relative to the national/international economy within a hypothetical time period, even the so called best pieces. Far safer is to snatch true bargains when you see them then sell them on in another capacity. Quickly if possible. I have "collected" and sold a few fittings over the last 5 years in a hobby-like endeavor. A handful of tsuba, a few kozuka, a wari-kogai, an iron kojiri spring to mind. A small number of medium quality/low priced items. Everything I have sold has generated profit, I purchased at what I considered low/bargain prices then sold through a dealer with pricing on his advice; after his very modest cut I still had +15-20%. What I am about to say flies in the face of conventional wisdom and I am preparing for a flaming but here goes... :lol: Everything I sold for a profit was sourced from Ebay. I wouldn't really say this was a time efficient profit process though, at all, in terms of the amount of time I spent trawling 'investable' ebay tsuba compared to the amount of money I made. I learned a lot, however. My most recent successful purchase was a momoyama tsuba I found on ebay, I paid about 550 USD for it with shipping from Japan and sold it in London for 550 GBP. I think really this was only profitable because I got a deal on the purchase and it was bought in dollars then sold in pounds. Perhaps most importantly, the dealer is a good guy. Another thing I should probably add is that I hand delivered all items to the dealer and on average each took about 2-3 months to sell. I don't have much to add except for that it is very difficult to make any money at all when buying from large established sources eg: auction houses, any brick and mortar dealer or the larger online dealers - unless they miss a trick. The way these guys make money is to buy low and sell high. That really is the only way to make a business out of it. Buy high and sell very high doesn't usually work. You have to get a good deal initially and then be on the ball for your resale.

Wow... I love the look of this exhibition and have been daydreaming about designing/planning/curating one in a similar vain for years. Not quite as much anime in mine but Still...this is really encouraging and we ought to be seeing a lot more of these kinds of exhibition - helping to bring the arts back to the forefront of (young) peoples minds. There I am daydreaming again..I'll shut up now. Seriously though...this looks so awesome.

Without wishing to sound foolish I would like to pose a question - would some polishers from the old times (~500 years ago) have also used "special water" or secret water, as Mr. Kunitaro mentioned, or is this purely a post war thing? It is possible that the process sprung entirely from the necessity of cranking out acceptable looking gunto, but something tells me that it is unlikely that the concept was born entirely from this. Wouldn't the old polishers have had some kind of water with certain additives (only considering those lacking abrasive properties) which made the process "work better" or made the final product look a bit better...? We call it "acid" now and have been trained (brainwashed?) to believe that the use of "acid" is a very new fad and very bad thing when it may have been used for many years..or is that ridiculous to suggest? (It is a given that acids derived from lab chemistry are obviously a different thing to a squeeze of lemon in a bowl of water or its equivalent, and that stronger acids may "work faster" but also entail the negative traits more associated with their use.) Any thoughts?

Great video...thanks for sharing.

Not from my experience shipping to London addresses. Royal Mail?? Parcel Farce??!!! Please tell me you are joking. They have never delivered anything on time for me...

Very nice sword indeed! My experience is that when I use FedEx shipping to UK I never get charged for anything. The package just arrives on time every time hassle free. It's more expensive but never gets held up in customs...so far.

Re Hostility, indeed Keith, I know you're just a tease. My old timers remark ruffled you a little I see I too wish there was better or at least more accurate "anime stuff" out there, though artistic representation is often fantastical to some degree. Sometimes fantastical scenes with realistic elements can provoke thought on the potential "reality". Take chanbara movies for example. Many contain unlikely stunts and performances from actors which in "real life" would most likely not pan out as they in the movie.. but they are thought provoking, nay, inspirational for some. From chanbara we get fantastic action, which inspires real life curiosity. It is only after this curiosity is sparked that the will for serious study can emerge. Without something that grabs the imagination there will be no further interest in the subject. The inspiration I speak of may come from visiting a museum, a grandfathers war story or an inherited sword, chanbara movies or samurai kenshin x; but I'm not going to write someone off because of where their interest was originally sparked or the road they traveled to arrive at nihonto; I'de like to encourage those that are heading in the "right" direction - which is of course a serious interest in real nihonto Regards,

Thank goodness this pursuit is not about profit, but having said that if no profit were ever to be made from the sale of art and swords then then both would die a slow and sorrowful death. I know a dealer that wouldn't be fascinated, the same stand up old timer that taught me keeping ones eyes peeled, buying 'low' in dollar and yen and selling 'high' in pound sterling is as good a way as any to stay in the black I just think its better to embrace all channels of potential interest stemming from youth culture or new culture or pop culture and tap them to keep these crafts alive rather than exhibit this seemingly hostile outlook towards them.

Touché. I hope you know that by saying that you are discouraging the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts - MANY, if not all of which will be to a greater or lesser extent "into" anime. Welcome to the future. This 20 something anime fan for one though admittedly hasn't found a missing masamune but has made at 15%-20% on EVERY Nihonto related purchase since he started collecting. How many old timers can match that?

Phil, I highly recommend The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords, it's somewhat of a newbie's nihonto bible and you cant go wrong with it, well worth the purchase. My 2c regarding tameshigiri with Nihonto is this: if you must, don't use a nice old sword for it, use a nice new sword. Why not have one specially made for you by a swordsmith to your exact specifications, just as in old times. You would also be able to choose the precise koshirea you wanted. Laughable to risk damaging a nice old sword with attempted test cutting I'm in total agreement with, but I know many people who do pretty well by investing in art and antiques, I suppose it depends on what you deem a good investment though. One needs a good understanding of the art market also...

Hi, Jacques of course you are right.. forgot a "mainly" before "in the hamon".

Tobias, there is a wealth of resources to be found online and a good deal of material written about such basic things as terminology. Before posting I suggest using google search to pare down the number of questions you need to ask board members. You will find the reading quite interesting also. Regarding Mi, this refers to the blade body (excluding nakago) type - examples of descriptions would be shinogi tsukiri, shobu tsukuri, kira tsukuri, katakiriba tsukuri, unokobi tsukuri etc... Sorry for my inconsistent spelling of colo(u)r, but I am a UK USA dual citizen so on occasion get muddled. Aside from that I'm not really sure what more to say. Color = Colour = Color = Colour. Of course in the case of sword steel there is a very nuanced spectrum. I would not be able to describe the colour of sword steel other than that it looks new or old to my eyes (rule of thumb is darker is old, lighter is new), but then again I am nothing close to an expert on nihonto and different polishers can change the nuance of a blades color depending on the kind of finish the polisher gives it. (There is more to polishing than just "sashikomi or keisho" but again we are drifting out of my field of understanding. Nioi and Nie are crystals that are made up of martensite and troostite and are found in the hamon. They can both be described by their density, brightness and distribution along the blade. Blades that are made up of mostly nie are called nie-deki, those that are made up of nioi are called nioi deki. Here are some links: http://www.samuraisword.com/glossary/ http://www.nihontocraft.com/nihonto_nie_nioi.html http://www.ricecracker.com/info/hamon.htm http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... 8-Nie-Nioi

Hi Tobias, Throwing around info... :? Or just presenting it... Is it the terminology you do not understand? Only reading will cure this. Include everything you know about the sword. Just in case you didn't know... Chu Kissaki = Kissaki is Chu kissaki, not ko, not O, not fukura, not ikari, not ikubi.... Koshi Sori = Sori is Koshi Sori. Not Torii sori, not saki sori, not mu-zori, not uchi sori Gyo no mune (takashi) = Mune is iori shape. Not hiramune, not shinno mune, not maru mune. Boshi Midare Komi = Describes Boshi hamon and turnback type Hamon Midare = Hamon, not choji etc... Yakibe Muneyaki = Hardening describing the back of the blade is hardened, not just the cutting edge. Re-posting from what I learned from Elliot Long's website http://www.shibuiswords.com/apprais2.htm (I do not know the original source) : JU-SAN no MITSUKE / Discovery of the Thirteen Points / Thirteen points of sword appraisal: MI Sori Mune Kissaki Hada Steel Color Hamon Boshi Kaeri Yakiba Colour Nie Nioi Horimono ------------------------------ Additionally: Length, width and thickness of blade at various points Same for nakago Mekugiana Place of manufacture Date of manufacture Method of manufacture Smith Mei Style Tameshigiri engraving State of polish Kizu Previous owners / Provenance Note that the thirteen points are used to come to conclusions for attribution but there is more info than just these thirteen points needed to accurately describe a blade in full, especially for someone who may be unfamiliar with the attributed smith. A description of koshirae is also required to describe a complete sword rather than just the blade, which as you can see is not covered here...

Curran, Thanks very much for your reply and the great pictures. Dare I ask as Pete K did earlier in this thread...can we see the backs? To my naive eye a lot of resemblance in the rendering, right down to the detailing of the paws. I wish I could get a sharper photo like yours. Is there enough similarity between the two sets to assume that they could be from the same school... This is exactly what interested me about them...I thought they were a little out there, but nicely done. I enclose one more image..

Hi Guys, Thanks for the follow up! Franco, Aoi Art said these are shakudo plate... I forgot to include measurements before: Length 1 : 2.57 cm x 1.51 cm (1.01 inches x 0.59 inches) Length 2 : 2.73 cm x 1.23 cm (1.07 inches x 0.48 inches) The consensus seems to be that these are not Goto work, but this doesn't change how I feel about them :D Regards,

Ah... the old chestnut of friends and touching blades. I don't even bother telling people not to touch a blade anymore. When I make the decision to get one out, suffice to say I am ready for anything. I just let whoever it is cop a good old feel to get it out of their system. I have the windex and choji handy for when they've had their kicks. I don't know how many times I've said "don't touch the blade" only to be (select one or more) given puppy eyes / ignored / considered a pedant / ignored / seen as overreacting / thought of as superstitious / ignored / labelled a spoilsport. Did I mention ignored? Solution - don't get the nice ones out for anyone other than sword aficionados..

Cant see enough details from the pics to know. Whichever school made the fittings would be the answer to your question.

Your sword is............ Genuine. Please post pics of the nakago and papers so we have a better idea of who it was made by. Bizen blade?

Hi All, Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I had some pics I wanted to add for reference. These were difficult to take, poor quality images attesting, but still show more detail than the scans, I feel. Quite a surprise to me was just how difficult these are to capture..they are minute and a challenge for the old camera phone Amazing for me is how different the facial expressions appear with just a slight difference in angle and lighting. Sorry David, I meant to say "Edo period kyo-kinko". Regards,

Anyone seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtSSLaSdEtE

Woah there! :lol: You did say: "Are we really hoping to find new collectors as a result of popular (and totally nonfactual) media?" Which sounds pretty scornful of 'nonfactual media' (the clue is the 'totally'), then followed by "What sort of collector.....Ninja fringe dwellers...ludicrous film admirers...game console addicts" (clues are 'sort of collector', 'fringe dwellers', ludicrous and addicts). I think you hung the elitism tag around your own neck by rushing straight to questioning collectors' paths to the field rather than their devotion to it. Anyway... I am not sure how this would devalue my input, but it wouldn't bother me because I am somewhat of a mass media elitist, I am very picky about what I choose to absorb from the mass media! (Try to be anyway.) Sorry, it seemed from your last post that you kind of did doubt this, my mistake. Yes, but these facts do not devalue their contribution to getting newbies involved with collecting, which was kind of the point of my argument. That and the fact that this 'entertainment' will represent a proportionally greater and greater source of inspiration for collecting as time goes on. The fact is that nowadays using a sword as originally intended (as a weapon), is in itself a fantasy, entertainment. What used to be 'real' military training is a pastime now rather than a serious and 'real world' applicable endeavor. Agree entirely, which is another reason why I think that interest in Nihonto can only grow over time - in great part because of channels like the NMB.

I was assuming that "we" were hoping to find new collectors of any kind, as long as they genuinely show interest in, value and help preserve Nihonto. Are you saying this would be attracting the wrong kind of people? I think this is an example of the elitism mentioned earlier showing its head. If it is the death of the pursuit which we worry about (though I am not worried..), remember that beggars can't be choosers. I also think fantasy and legend have their place in inspiring interest in "real life" pursuits. Either way and whether you like it or not, there are for sure many people interested in this area originally primarily due to fictional media. The only thing that matters is that they participate in the appreciation and preservation of nihonto and related arts. Do you disagree? I think the reasons for an interest being held are dynamic, that is to say what captures someones attention initially may not be the same thing that holds that attention for years and years. The important thing is how many new people can be properly introduced to the world of Nihonto, and while being new not be put off, rather spend enough time in this field to find their own particular area of fascination and concentrate on it. If we value this hobby, we really should be doing all we can to not push people away. Modern ones. For example, I would wager that there are quite a few Nihonto collectors who owe a lot of their interest to an obsession with the concept of the light saber or a romanticized samurai drama. Even animated ones, you better believe it! I predict there will be far more where they came from in the future. seriously Keith, how many people get interested in tsuba through a path otherwise unrelated to the sword? I believe that an appreciation for tsuba comes only after an initial interest in nihonto in general (primarily fully mounted swords), for at least 99.99% of the time anyway. This hobby is an acquired taste, it takes time for an interest in tsuba as a field of their own to grow (and even for blades themselves; consider most newbies would not even think about buying a "bare blade in shirasaya", after all, its not even a sword). As for motivation for collecting I think that there must be many different factors that all come together to make a person say to themselves, yes, I'm really going to buy myself a Japanese sword because I really want to own one. That is not a decision to take lightly and I think that the true motivation for it is multifaceted and nuanced. Many, for sure, but not JUST because they watched one or two of these films. My point is that they play an important role in the process of 'converting' an individual towards a true interest in nihonto. Rushing out to buy a library on Japanese swords and having one's level of interest increase are not the same thing. What I meant by my original post was that there are a great deal more potentially influencing factors 'out there' in the media which could inspire an interest in nihonto than there used to be; there are so many more media platforms than there used to be, and they are so much more advanced, interactive and pervasive than they used to be. Of course they form a greater part of the routs of inspiration for interest in this field now than they did before, in the future even more so. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

I come a little late to this, but many very interesting points have been raised in the discussion. I am fairly optimistic in that I believe interest in Japanese swords outside of Japan will grow over the next 50 years, slowly but surely. One main reason is supply and demand, there are a great many more people in the world today than there were 50 years ago, but the same number (actually fewer and fewer) antique Japanese swords. Pricing is now about as low as it has ever been at any point in the last 40 years (adjusted for inflation). The Japanese economy is poor, though even if it were to get worse I do not see the value of Nihonto dropping much further. There will always be rich and super rich collectors propping up the market, especially the high end. Another point as mentioned is that there has been a greater dissemination of knowledge thanks to modern communications technology and media (the internet). Interest in and awareness of swords is thus boosted. There are other less obvious things happening too though…Japanese pop culture, partly due to the internet and partly due to various offerings (products, branding, film, animation, graphic novels) has changed from the alternative to thoroughly mainstream. As a result, authentic 'Japanness' is itself a commodity, of which Japanese swords form a good part. The post 80s/90s generation is aware of this but for the most part have not reached the age or financial stability to show a measurable interest, but I believe they are coming. Also worth mentioning I think is that the micro culture of samurai, martial arts, 'budo', ninja, and representations thereof are now cultural icons in and of their own right. Again, they have transcended from the alternative to the mainstream. In the modern context, these themes stand alone and almost unrelated to other things Japanese. A ninja nowadays isn’t necessarily Japanese. Any modern comic book hero can wield a katana, regardless of his (or her) ethnic origin. True quality and beauty in craftsmanship is timeless and not bound by cultural norms. Anyone with a 'good eye can appreciate Nihonto. Anyone who values the sleek production quality of a piece of high end modern consumer electronics such as the iphone can not help but appreciate a fine blade in polish, simply because of the crispness of lines, the precision of the work and play of the light. The fact that the crafts associated with Nihonto are all handicraft rather than machine built should add another level of fascination to the casual observer. On new collectors and encouraging future generations to take up the path. I think something very important to consider is that the path to collecting or serious interest in this field is dynamic and changes with the times. The route that young people may have taken 50 odd years ago to get where they are today regarding their interest in swords will almost certainly be different to those taken by young people entering this field post year 2000. I agree that the treasure hunting aspect is pretty much done for. No doubt that fact will have the effect of removing many would-be potential collectors from the foray, though sometimes it is easy to forget what exactly it was that brought us this far, what it was that helped develop the initial seed of interest into a hardy growth that stood the test of time. I remember handling a Japanese sword whilst still training in karate and aikido 10+ years ago, at the time Nihonto were of very little interest to me. Despite this, the fact is that today I understand that studying Japanese martial arts certainly forms the foundations of my current interest in Nihonto. So why was I not interested sooner? (That is a difficult question to answer and I wont try to do it here.) Suffice to say, I believe that serious interest in Nihonto is somewhat of an acquired taste, and there are numerous challenges to getting involved. At first the world of Nihonto seems impenetrably complex for a number of reasons - lack of English language learning material (though this is changing), lack of western experts (changing a little), consistent use of Japanese terminology, the prohibitively high cost of collecting quality work, the notorious and undeniably fickle nature of Nihonto enthusiasts, a perception that those who show a true interest are engaging in 'nutty fringe' elements (samurai sword fanatics! reenactors!), various governments' and the media’s tacit support for a negative attitude towards folk interested in weapons (even if ancient), the multitude of fakes and replicas on the market intended to remove money from naive newcomers, the monumental cost of restoration etc – the list is almost endless. And yet…we have young collectors among us here. As Brian said, I think the survival of the art of the sword and sword related craftsmanship in Japan must be of greatest concern. I am both surprised and not surprised to learn that interest has fallen so much in Japan in recent years. Surprised because I would have thought that the traditionally patriotic tendencies of the Japanese might mitigate the alienating effects of modernity on interest in antiquities. However, despite a brief (and perhaps shameful) renaissance of interest in the sword during WW2, we find ourselves again in a situation where swords and their use are so far removed from daily life in Japan as to be almost foreign objects to the 21st century Japanese. Where outside of Japan there still exists some intrigue and mystery regarding 'samurai swords', inside Japan the academic pursuit of studying the craft is perhaps viewed by the young as rather stuffy and rigid, and culminating only in a dead end; there is very little money or social leverage to be had from it. The culture of instant gratification as previously mentioned clearly plays a role here also. Either way, the current lay of the land does not make for a situation that captures young people's imaginations the same way that historical legends, action films, animated series and graphic novels do – which is where I believe the future of this hobby rests – in the hands of storytellers actually outside the realms of the serious academic pursuit at the core of the Nihonto world. Thoughts?

Thanks to all! I thought it looked 'kinda neat' but $450 is way too much.