Tcat

Crudely cast copies made in China, could have been last week. 1970s? hmmm.... Look on ebay for F/K sets under $30 you will find those and similar variations. eg: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FK112-JP-SAMURA ... 5ae5f5d1dd

John, great stuff; thanks to all involved

Hi All, Indeed Chris indeed. I was thinking this was a possibility, of course It was a shinshinto tachi. Japanese copiers make fakes of pretty much any smith that can turn a buck or two. Could be oldest koto right upto gendai. This little upset took place about 4 years ago. The mei was cut like the "originals" were supposed to be.... not with Chinese. It was definately a tachi mei. Brian, so many high end luxury goods are made almost entirely in China, then they are shipped to the "country of origin" (lol) where they have an extra label sewn in or a button added or a strap toggled (or something) which then allows the manufacturer of whatever it is to claim it was "Made in Italy" or "Made in Switzerland". I cant help but laugh and tut-tut. Tut tut at the lax consumer protection laws that allow this to be the case and tut tut at the brands that think they can have their cake and eat it. It serves them all right for outsourcing everything in the name of greed. Move production to China = compete with counterfeits of your own goods - in fact, they arnt even counterfeits, they are unfinished products coming straight out of the backdoor of your factory bwahaha. Some day they will learn. As for watches... I know where they keep the "good" fakes (the secret is, they arnt fake...). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have just spotted the post above by Clive - Thanks Clive, the sword in the article you mention is the exact same sword I was talking about! I showed to a certain member of the European To-Ken society at Sotheby's after it was returned (much to the house's ire). I tried to find out as much information as I could at the time but got barked at by Christian Bouvet for sticking my nose where it didnt belong. I also tried to make the house an offer for it (but got shot down by Bouvet) because I thought it was an interesting example of a "nearly perfect" fake. I would wager it still sits on a rack in the Chinese works of art department in the London office where last I saw it, by this time having developed a nice layer of oxidation as it sits ignored - a total loss. Oh well...

George, I have also "heard" this rumour before, or actually deduced it myself from knowledge acquired from talking to some London and Paris dealers and a top expert at a certain auction house... Without being able to go into too much detail, my anecdotal experience is this: A sword which looked to me to be a perfectly legitimate (and signed) nihonto was rejected by a Shinsa panel (in an undisclosed location) as being not only gimei but also a fake that was fabricated in China. I am very familiar with the various offerings of reproduction j-sword forges in China and none of them are anything like as close to the genuine article as this particular sword, which I personally was convinced was Japanese. How the shinsa panel deduced that it was a Chinatana I do not know, but suffice to say I do not think they like to release this information for fear that the forgers will get better. My only explanation (to myself) was that it had been made in China by a Japanese tosho or that it had been made under the direct and strict supervision of someone trained in the traditional Japanese techniques (but in kantai I am no expert, barely a novice). I believe that it is more likely that there is or are some unscrupulous Japanese tosho who travel to China to fabricate batches of fake swords which would be harder to get out of Japan and where there are no penalties for such a "crime" as in Japan - thus avoiding the possible revoking of their license to manufacture nihonto(??). Note: The blade was good enough to not only "fool" a collector of some 20 years or so, but also a very well respected nihonto dealer and all the specialists in the Japanese department of aforementioned unnamed vary big and famous auction house. It was the Shinsa panel only that raised the red flag. Now...drifting slightly off topic, not wanting to harp back to recent but thoroughly worn threads, (but doing so anyway ); a new and interesting question is raised: is a Japanese sword made with traditional steel and forging techniques by a traditionally trained Japanese smith still considered a Nihonto when it is made in China? (Apparently not... but I thought that it was now widely accepted that swords made in China by Japanese smiths during the WWII are true Nihonto...) We enter another murky realm...

Makes me think of that wonderful swordfight in "The Princess Bride" :lol:

Nice 1 Markus. I will definately be purchasing the English language copies!

Everything made has a use, even if the use is decorative. A tsuba designed primary for decoration is still a tsuba, and will perform as one when put to use as such. A decorative Toby jug can still be used to drink beer perfectly well from, even if it wasnt intended for the purpose. I thought thats pretty much what artists hope for - to create art... I also referred to a thread and wouldnt have if I wasnt familiar with its contents, and those of the others mentioned. The purpose is not confrontation, it is to clarify why you believe soft metal tsuba to be unfit for purpose. No one seems to have been able to do so yet... despite a lot of assertions and hot air implying any tsuba which isnt made of iron shouldnt be taken seriously as part of a weapon, or shouldnt be actually used - which we all know to be nonsense!

Thats fine, perhaps instead you can simply explain your implications that soft metal tsuba are not fit for purpose.

I currently take what youre saying to mean that if you layed a soft metal tsuba on a worktop and gave it a whack with your kizu-less shinsakuto, you could split it. However your assertion that soft metal tsuba are, practially speaking and for want of a better expression 'not fit for purpose' - and that this assertion is "easily demonstrable", is bold to say the least. As far as I can see, to "demonstrate this" one would need to face off a significant number of cloned samurai in various circumstances, the only difference between them being that one group would have iron tsuba and the other would have soft metal tsuba, all other things being equal - and see which group had more men standing at the end...or something... Even if your shinsakuto could split a soft metal tsuba, what does this prove? Helmets can be split and all swords can be broken. If soft metal were really too weak to make tsuba from, why are there examples of lacquered leather tsuba?

What exactly do you mean by "resist a moderately good blade"?

I'll bet.

Chris, I'll bite. Although I havnt got anything "in hand" your timing is good. I have nothing in the way of swords, but I have kodogu WIP with two non Japanese craftsman. One very highly respected and Japanese trained, doing issaku koshirea. The other is less well known and may be considered by some to be a bit of a gamble, but the stakes are not high and I have seen many photos of his work which is impressive; he is recreating some missing fittings from a Japanese set and has the existing original parts to work from. Perhaps I can post the completed work and have the forum guess what's new and what's old!

As the OP noted, elements covered in "Do you collect swords as art or as artifact?" are pretty relevant here. In answer to the OP, what "it is" comes down to what individuals value to be or consider as "art". Thankfully there is no definitive answer, it differs between individuals. Modern made kodogu, albeit the high quality work of Ford and some others, to me, is equaly valuable as any other quality made modern kodogu, Japanese or Australian. I suspect that some of the other "western" nihonto related craftsmen (including all areas of the art) over the last 20 years, claiming to work in the Japanese style, have done sub par work and have sullied the names or muddied the waters when it comes to collectors and enthusiasts judgement re: western nihonto craftsmen. This is regrettable, but anyone that can use their eyes and has a modicum of taste will be able to pick the good apples. Racism in this art is a very lazy filter - but those who apply it will miss some of the most beautiful gems in the trove. More fool them is all I can say. Lastly, re: the modern workshop with gatoraid etc. As long as the work itself is correct, high quality and aesthetically pleasing - it doesnt matter to me that it wasnt quenched in spring water once washed in by miyamoto musashi. The fact that the work is correct and high quality is ENOUGH romance to me - the spirit of old lives on in the work - the spirit of good work, the spirit of quality and beauty. Those in themselves are enough of a connection to the past, for me.

All good points re:correct labelling and correct tariff codes! This is very important... I might add that previously being a full time UK resident, whenever having anything sword related of any value (USD 1000+) delivered to me, I used FedEx everytime after having experiencing countless headaches and mistakes due to the fumbling hands of "Parcelforce" or as I like to call them, "Parcelfarce". I have never had any problem, holdups or customs delays when using FedEx. Expensive but worth it.

Applying a crusty copper patina to this one may be a challenge, even for the master :lol:

Having seen this listing before and having not paid much attention to it at the time, I was sure it was made of copper...thanks to Ford for the Schrager lines link.

John, David, Pete, Grey, thank you very much for the enlightenment and kind words. This was the first tsuba I collected and probably my favorite. It really looks better (softer, richer, deeper) in person. I see something similar being offered on ebay. Eric at Owazamono used to have it, now it is with fujisanblack but has no fukurin. I wonder if they are the same school considering the lack of fukurin and the example Grey posted. A final question, why there seems to be a gold residue on some parts of the plate? Just little dots and streaks, but enough to assure me Im not seeing thing and make me think there may have once been something there. Again, I have no idea what this would indicate though. So interesting, thanks very much.

Hi All, I just dug out the description from the auction... Apologies for not including measurements in the original post, schoolboy error: 71mm x 70mm x 4mm Bazza, you were right; description is : Tsuba with fukurin, tomoe and sea cucumber (??) I believe it is Edo, but couldnt decide whether like David said, it was an older tusba modified and filled or if it was simply made that way. Shonai = Shoami? Is a fukurin defined as a separately fitted rim, as opposed to a mimi formed from the same material as the main body of the tsuba? Thanks to all!

Ian, she is obviously on her way to inspect a nakago.. The 'mallet' is clearly a mekuginuki.

If anyone can shed light on what exactly this tsuba is I would be very appreciative. Out of my small collection it is the only one I have absolutely no idea about regarding its origins. The photos do not do the patina justice. The iron is a very dark chocolate colour, the mimi which I think is shakudo is very smooth and shiny black. David's Daruma tsuba post reminded me because the mimi and iron look similar, but I may well be a country mile off the point.

For the purposes of anyone who has come to this topic via a forum search, here are some measurements from examples I found. Ref 1: Higo FK and Kojiri Set (Original, Edo Period, Sword Size Unknown) FUCHI: 39.5mm x 22mm x 8mm. KASHIRA: 33mm x 15mm x 11mm. KOJIRI: 37.5mm x 18.5mm x 9mm Ref 2: Reproduction Higo FK and Kojiri Set (Wak Sized) FUCHI: 40mm x 23mm x 10mm kASHIRA: 35mm x 17mm x 13mm kOJIRI: 37.5mm x 18.7mm x 12.2mm (Same as katana size)

Great post Darcy, many thanks! Not sure where I got the idea, but could it be said that in terms of very rough generalization, koto blades tend to be more blueish (or darker) in colour than their more contemporary counterparts?

Some questions to help make a judgement: 1) what kind of kizu, and how large? 2) is there a habaki? 3) are there any other fittings / shirasaya present? 4) can you provide any other photos showing the whole blade and/or any other parts present?

Sugata looks pleasing, and the tsuba is quite charming, nice buy!

Very beautiful sword John, congratulations, and thanks for the pictures. (Very nice Yoroi-doshi too Curran.)