Tcat

Ok thanks Jacques, this graphic is very helpful and better shows a spread of variations… Markus, thank you for checking in to this thread. This is really interesting and explains a lot. Thanks to all for the learning opportunity, it’s really appreciated.

You’re quite right about that, it’s not “kane” - my mistake. However I am still quite hung up on the reason to sign in this manner that looks so much like 魚 as this is clearly intentional.

Sorry but the swordsmith’s correct name may be “兼道” but this sword, like many others, is purposefully signed “魚道”. It is not an accident that it looks as much like “fish” as possible. Much more like “fish” than anything else, so we can deduce that its 100% intentional. Which makes me wonder why we refer to the signature as “兼道” when in fact it is signed to look like “魚道”, intentionally. I guess it is a stylistic choice but I wonder why we don’t just call it what it is. Kanemitsu (a lot of them) did it too.

Are you absolutely sure of that? 🤔 Sorry to be blunt, but the character chiseled on that sword looks *nothing* like the one you’ve pointed me to in Sesko’s reference. One stroke is missing because of the mekugiana. I’ll get out my little red pen to illustrate…

Request for learning opportunity - Why do we say the sword is signed “兼道” when it is signed “魚道” surely... I know both the first characters are pronounced “kane”.

The last person I would doubt, but sometimes one has to read between the lines of a statement rather than take it entirely literally.

Oh dear, sorry but this is bad advice only one is accurate (the last). It’s quality (not age), then VALUE vs PRICE (not just price)…then “do you like it”. Age is way down there. There are lots of rocks and stones lying around that have a lot more “age” to them than any sword. it’s really not…

Perhaps I'm biased but I believe that is part of what was behind many great achievements in history

Fantastic. Hope there's more where that came from. Other museums need to start taking a ginko leaf out of the Ashmolean's book

Pure speculation here but I'm going to 'hazard' a guess just for fun - perhaps it is to indicate where the original yasurime begin / end to differentiate between newer ones made at the time of the alteration.

Just want to add that its probably not only 'wear' that does this to the area around the tsuba - its moisture and corrosion / rust which builds up layer upon layer due to the damp finding a place to collect, condense and react repetedly through years of neglect / poor storage.

+1 and is the same reason I can barely bring myself to comment unless I'm feeling really in the mood for a good fight

Yes, especially at this stage in his career. Remember, this is very early Watts, he was only 24 years old at the time of writing and probably still a bit green to the true depth and complexities of the topic at hand.

I for one would love to hear… I have to satiate myself with the “fag ends” of this era, which my father was very much a part of when it came to Rigbys Purdeys and HH rifles but sadly not Japanese swords. Happy New Year Colin.

The answer is right there in your post. The character “刀” can be pronounced “tō” or “katana / gatana” meaning knife, but more accurately, meaning a *single edged blade*. “剑” or Ken is used to refer to double edged blades, hence when you combine the two you get the word 刀剑 or “Tōken”, implying the concept of both single and double edged blades - ie “swords” in general. The western notion that “katana” specifies a Japanese sword which is longer than both a tanto and a wakizashi but shorter than a tachi or odachi is true but also somewhat of a confusing simplification, enshrined now in classification by kantaisho but one we have become so accustomed to that we overlook it. In essence, what makes a katana a katana is when it’s a single edged Japanese sword which doesn’t fall into any of the other classifications. A “katana” is in fact the least specific of all blade classifications because it simply means it’s *not* defined as any of the others. Katana is the definition you are left with when you eliminate all other possibilities. Modelling knives in Japan are called kogatana, ko is simply 小 meaning small and 刀, meaning “small single edged blade” - exactly the same word as used for the kogatana that fit into kozuka and were carried as part of sword koshirae - but they are not the same thing. Now… the word 短, tan, which means “short” (as opposed to long) when combined with 刀 makes “Tantō” - the Japanese do not say “Tan-gatana” but they might as well. Short katana is sort of a direct but albeit confusing translation… But it gets weirder.. the earliest Japanese swords referred to as “katana” or gatana were no longer than around the size of a short wakizashi. These katana were the original “side swords” until society started to redefine what a side sword was, and the term wakizashi came much later.

Rare occasion when he is quite wrong because he is using a quote from an English language source and using English language terminology which isn’t in fact technically applicable to the subject at hand. He should know better. Swords are measured and classified accordingly in shaku, sun, bu and rin. A sun-nobi tanto is a tanto which exceeds the prescribed length of a tanto by *around* one sun. That is to say, it looks like a tanto, walks like a tanto and sounds like a tanto, so it is in fact a tanto, which is why we call it a sun-nobi tanto, but the the authorities in their infinite wisdom *officially* record it as wakizashi on kanteisho. Pure semantics and classification debate which is removed from the actual use / technique and application of each type of weapon. Terminology loophole if you will.

Technically, sun-nobi 'tanto' are officially considered 'wakizashi' on kanteisho.

Wishing you a speedy recovery Jacques. A dog has wiped me out on two wheels before...I know how it feels.

I suspect the metal is not tamahagane nor oroshigane or similar. Undecided as to whether the heat treat is real but fairly certain it is not. I can get in touch with the craftsmen and ask if there's enough interest.

A troll? No better than Jacques

I thought some of you might find this interesting. I cannot find a copy of this article online and think that this is as good a place as any to share it. So, without further ado, here is the segment in question from 'Asia' magazine, May 1939, titled 'The Rusty Swords of Japan- A Study in the Death of a Philosophy' by Alan Wilson Watts. Enjoy.

Well, I'm sure they do, so you might be right. I certainly wouldnt try to argue that the two are completely unconnected, just have my doubts that they are one and the same source due to the chronological gap. From what I understand, the group that produced these micro swords are a contemporary collective of artisans with a variety of specialities. I dont doubt. It's rare for very high quality works to be randomly submitted here for appraisal and commentary. The lesson is, if you see something and its really good for a good price, just buy it. But only if its really good

Haha, well, a tanto koshirea can be 'aikuchi style' and an aikuchi koshirea can be made for a tanto (which, when the two are combined makes an aikuchi tanto, or simply 'an aikuchi') - but neither implies the other. But that's not what you wrote... What you wrote was - So, technically this is false. A tanto is a tanto with or without koshirea. Meanhile the koshirea is not called 'an Aikuchi', it is called 'an Aikuchi koshirea'. The tanto becomes becomes 'an aikuchi' when mounted in aikuchi style mounts. Similar (but at the same time, opposite) to how a kozuka is a kozuka and a kogatana is a kogatana but a kogatana mounted in a kozuka is a kogatana. Moving on....a tanto is still a tanto while in shirasaya. Lack of a tanto sized tsuba does not change this fact. A tanto is defined as blah blah shaku in length - you know this. Meanwhile, a tanto in aikuchi koshirea is still a tanto. Done

Technically, this is completely false. Yes. Also known as an aikuchi. Aikuchi koshirea can also be used on long swords, such as the famous Kenshin koshirea...

I never implied that you did. Indeed, and that is exactly the point at which most people's train of thought ends - hence my comment on this phenomenon. The post is for everyone, it is not directed at you.