Adrian S

G'day Ford and others, Thank you for your very interesting reply. I did say the Borax use in Shinto swords is an "early hypnosis" . Chris has stated he has seen it used by some shinsakuto smiths, obviously on tamehagane. So that much is fact, even if they don't show it on YouTube. The Portuguese introduction theory has been floating around for years, I've read it before but can't recall any documentation from that time. Anyway, I think I'll keep some other hypothesis I have to myself for now. What I do know is, the Chinese were using a "highly flux-able refractory clay" which contained borax and other fluxing materials from before the Ming. To my knowledge this fact has already been proven by the Beijing University., Institute of Iron and Steel Technology. by Director Sun, the head of the Institute, and Professor Han Rubin, the chief Archeo-metallurgical Scientist. It comes from both analytical and archeological evidence I believe. Since it would be good to get this point clear and confirmed in my book, I've emailed my contact there today and will give you a more detailed answer and post when I get it. If the Japanese at some point instituted a similar technology is still unknown. Whether it be Borax, Silicon or whatever other indicators turn out to be key indicators, won't matter much. So at this stage I would like to move on to the first tests and have a look at the data before getting too exciting about any hypnosis. We know that the steels changed from region to region, school to school and over time. That's what kantei is all about anyway. We will ( I hope ) be able to chemically differentiate these changes in the steel and then after thorough collection of the data make some conclusions later. These conclusions I'm sure will be widely debated. I'm more interested to see if there were consistent chemical differences in the first place. Keep in mind that the finished steel is also effected by the fuel, the flux , the source material, even the lining of the furnace. It all plays a part. We are looking to categorize differences and similarities to provide indicators, that's about it at this stage. More to come.. Adrian S

G'day All, We now seem to be getting some serious replies. Good stuff. O.k. here go the responses 1) Borax and other fluxes. Occam's razor on the Borax, way to early for that Ford! Indeed the Chinese were using Borax in their swords from the Ming ( yes, I do have the science ), this also caused a dramatic change in appearance of the finished quality of the metal and the welds. I would suggest that what applies today, may have applied 400 years ago, namely " chinese can supply you cheaper, no worries ". The Tokugawa closed door policy only applied to the front door, not the back door. The back door was wide open, black market trade at this time with China and Korea was prolific. 2) XRF has been around for a long time, but not so long in the portable form. This is a relatively new development. 3) Portable XRF scanner accuracy. The technician claims the accurately to be within 2%. That means if for example you get a reading of 1.25% silicon, the accuracy range will be 1.225% to 1.275%, well within laboratory standards. It will not be necessary to achieve accuracy above that for this purpose. My first trials should bear that out. Chris, thanks for the book list, I have most but not the Satetsu one. " I'm making a list, I'm checking it twice, I'm going to find out whose been naughty or nice" :lol: Here is a list of the first batch of swords up for testing. All are signed ubu, most dated and all are highly papered. We have picked swords we feel will give interesting results. Gendai Katana , Kasama Shigetsugu Katana , Seki Kanemichi Katana , Yoshichika (known for making his own steel) Katana , Yasutoku, Yasakuni smith. Shinshinto Naginata, Koyama Munetsugu Katana, Yokoyama Suketaka Katana , Yoshinao , wakimono smith Shinto Katana , Kawachi no Kami Kunesuke Wakizashi, Echizen Shimosaka Katana, Tsuda Sukehiro Katana , Kunishige Koto Katana, Bizen Eisho dated Sukesada Katana, Bizen Tensho Kiyomitsu Katana, Oei Bizen Yoshimitsu Wakisashi, Mino Kanemachi Katana, Bungo Shigeyuki I'm working on a couple more koto. stay tuned, Adrian S

Thanks Ford, I'll chase down that book. cheers, Adrian S

Thank you all for some very intelligent and inciteful comments Paul, Yes, your assumptions follow my thinking. With a solid supply of signed and dated swords with historical provenance it will be possible to build up "sword group profiles" . It will not matter much what each group did in processing or where they got their raw materials. What we will be able to do for example is examine the changes over time of the Bizen swordsmiths chemical characteristics and make correlations. In this way we will be able to date pieces within a broad timeframe. It will not tell you exactly who made the blade, but from which group and era the sword came from with some certainty, kantei will do the rest. Ian, You probably don't remember me but we met about 20 years ago and you were kind enough to give me a private veiwing of some exciting pieces. You are quite right that the portable version of the XRF scanner can not detect carbon or elements above carbon on the periodic table (although the lab version can). It matters little as all Japanese sword contain varying amounts of carbon. What is relevant is C14 testing. The article you are refering too regarding C14 testing on small samples of ancient steel was on the paper from Lawrence Livermore University, here it is for others following this thread to read. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/03 ... -0305.html Interestingly Nagoya University is doing similar research as well as a German University whos name escapes me right now. The method suggested by LLU is simple and I have already made inquires in Australia where a goverment lab can easily do it. Three problems. Firstly, very expensive, secondly requires at least one gram of material for destructive testing, lastly will only give an indication of age, not help with sword group profiling. The result is that for our application C14 testing will not be as important as XRF. The exciting thing about XRF scanning is that it will, with enough data compiled, give us age statistics anyway. This will come from the prevously mentioned sword group profiling and changes over time, with enough accuacy to give a kantei strong validity. Here's an early hypothisis. 1) Readings for Sodium with indicate the use of Borax ( sodium borate) flux, creating a Borax Portuguese introduction bondary. 2) Readings for elemental titanium, copper , silican and nickel with give regional source material indicators and help with sword group profiling. I suspect that other elements will also show discrepancies and variations. 3) Readings for high level Manganese will indicate Bessemer process steel production and imported steel, think Hizento, Yasutsugu and probably many other shinto smiths. Thats just for starters, once the data starts comming in I'm sure that many more indicators will create new assumptions. From there we will have a key indicator index to work with. Lets hope we can build the data quickly and as accurately as possible. cheers again, Adrian S P.S. don't I deserve a clap yet, shesh what a hard bunch!

G'day Chris, This is a quote from Clive Sinclair's website http://www.to-ken.com " Shigetsugu, born Kasama Yoshikazu on April 1, 1886 in Shizuoka, started his apprenticeship under his uncle Miyaguchi Shigetoshi in 1899. In 1903 he entered the Tokiwamatsu Token Kenkyujo, on the estate of Toyama Mitsuru, to study under Morioka Masayosh. Later he went on to study metallurgy whilst collaborating with Dr. Tawara Kuniichi in formal research on the composition of Japanese swords. Tazawa built a special laboratory in Tokyo University for the project. The results were published in a book called Nihonto no Kagakuteki Kenkyu (Scientific Research of the Japanese Sword), which remains to this day a definitive scientific work on the subject." Now Chris, are you going to save me a lot of trouble and tell me you have a translation of the research tables in English...hhmm. My guess is that you are familiar with the book and have read it. I have the book myself so if it hasn't been done before maybe one of our Japanese board members has read it and would be willing to do a little translation work on the relevant pages . My fiance is Japanese but the technical words are difficult for her. I would like to have a little of the research available for comparative study once I trial the XRF scanner. cheers, Adrian S

G'day Chris and all, I've just organized for the technical support manager to come out to me and test a dozen or so swords from different eras with the XRF scanner. I'll post the results when I have them at hand. I'll do tests on the whole sword at different points and plot them on an oshigata. It will depend on how much of his time this guy will be willing to give me. Luckily he seems fascinated with the experiment and the whole samurai sword thing. First thing first, we will need to see if the XRF scanner can detect discernible differences in sword steel. If it can ( how many are hoping it can't!) , then the next step is to build up a database of results. Imagine if you had a Masamune and were able to compare the chemical analysis to know examples. Wouldn't that just be great! I think I will start a correspondence with the Wakou Museum of Iron and Steel. I know they inherited Tawara Kuni-ichi's data AND his samples. Certainly they have some useful information. It is only a matter of time before the easy access to accurate scientific testing can build up the data necessary. This could be very exciting! cheers, Adrian S a.k.a the little aussies agitator

here's an update, Just spoke to the importer's tech. department about the capabilities of their XRF scanners. They can indeed give accurate readings within a 2% margin of error on almost any trace metallic element. They can also give a reading for a sample size as small as 3mm square. At the moment they are an expensive toy starting about $30K. Rental charges are about $2k for a week. I can see a day in the very near future when one of the big shinsa organizations will compile enough data to do evaluations based on the XRF analysis. To hire one of these things for a shinsa weekend would work out about $5 to$10 a sword. It would be advantageous to have your treasured swords tested and the results noted even in this point in time so future data can be compared as it becomes readily available. I'm going to do some more research and the importer has offered to do some trials on my swords no charge, yipee! Japanese sword XRF data charts...hmm sounds like a valuable addition to my new book. cheers, Adrian S

G'day folks, I don't know how to do those quote boxes, anyway

Hello Chris, It's 2am here and I can't sleep. Sure, smiths did indeed change the composition of their steels and even mix steels from differing sources. This mixing is also part of the hereditory knowledge of the school and a secret of the trade. In fact we will be able to analyse those patterns to isolate groups, which in turn will correlate to centres of manufacture i.e the swordssmith's groups. Particluary when we start to get data from known historically verifiable swords, such as signed and dated pieces. Luckily for our percular hobby, hereditary knowledge passed down in a school actually helps in the analyse. Ultimately the source of the sand iron will not matter so much as we will already have a scientific tool that will be able to match the steel in your sword to the type of steel typically from school X,Y or Z at a particular point in time. You should get some great data on gendai and Star stamps for example. Could put the stamp issue to bed for ever. I'm willing to bet only a low percentage of gendaito were chemically tamahagne. ( High levels of trace titanium, copper and silicon ) easily being differentiated from Bessemer blast furnace produced steel that has high Maganese which is almost non existant in tamahagne. Tawara Kuni-ichi knew all that before the war, its well documented in the Japanese scientific journals too. It will be also interesting to accertain if a sword has been made with borax as a flux, which was only introduced to Japan with the Portugese . Any sword with the presence of borax would be made after this date, new digital kantei point! This XRF spectrometer only uses X-rays to bouce off an object to achieve a chemical analyse and can work on a very difined area. And its portable! keep them comming cheers, Adrian S

G'day folks, I've been researching this one for years so feel free to fire away ( after you pick yourself up from the floor) Is it the end of our world as we know it? :? Imagine if you could do a labratory level, non destructive chemical anaysis of your beloved nihonto in about 3 seconds! A portable device, you could carry around and test any sword, any time? What if the test was so accurate you could even take readings at different spots on the sword. For example to check for a welded on nakago or to discover the laminated structure. In fact every sword has a chemical fingerprint. Undeniable and unchangable. The sand iron that the steel was made from also has a chemical fingerprint which changes from even different points on a river. Analysis and comparison of thousands of swords will soon provide all new data. We will be able to match the source of the sand iron with the finished swords and deduct trade patterns and changes in steel manufacturing. We will see how steel supplies changed and moved around over the centuries. For example, the source sand iron in the Bizen area was also wiped out with the flood of the Tensho Era. After that no more koto Bizen swords. Well, just in case you're still laughing then get a look at this puppie. This a a portable XRF spectormeter. Capable of detecting the smallest amounts of trace metals in any alloy even from a piece of wire or a bolt. It shows you the results on a little digital screen http://portableas.com/products/niton-xl3t-goldd-plus Here are the specs on it, very impression http://www.niton.com/Metal-and-Alloy-An ... ?sflang=en I think I saw Mr. Spock walking around with one of these things! You can even rent them for a week in the good ole U.S.of A.! This discussion should be fun. Robert Feather used one of these to analyse the Spear of Destiny, Holy Lance ( and a half a dozen names ) artifact. I think it was worth a bit for an old iron spear. Did you see that history channel special? Looks like I need a holster cheers, Adrian S

G'day to all, The Sydney NTHK Shinsa is almost sold out, I only have a few slots available for the Sunday afternoon the 11th September. If you haven't made your booking yet, better get onto it! The Metro Hotel has also almost sold out the reserved rooms. They will release the last of the reserved rooms this week. Please check the website for the latest Updates and News at this link. http://www.sydneytokenkai.com Looking forward to a great weekend. regards, Adrian Schlemmer info@sydneytokenkai.com

G'day All, Never is a long time. I will be happy to organize a future Shinsa but it will depend on demand, interest and economic situation at the time. Regards, Adrian Schlemmer

UPDATE 5.3.2011 So far the preparations for the NTHK Shinsa and Taikai are coming along well. I would like to encourage all who are thinking of attending and who would like to book slots for Shinsa to get your preferred times in as soon as possible. Here is an update so far. Friday slots - BOOKED OUT! Saturday slots - 40% booked Sunday slots - 20% booked Don't miss out, it could be a long time before we can get another Shinsa out here regards, Adrian Schlemmer info@sydneytokankai.com http://www.sydneytokankai.com

Hello Members, For those of you in Sydney who were planning to attend the Sydney Token Kai meeting this Saturday 7th of May. Unfortunately we will need to reschedule this meeting for another date and will most likely be holding it at another venue. The Aspire hotel where we normally meet has changed hands and the new owners are not allowing us to use the hotel with ""samurai swords" on display as they can not give us any insurance or liability cover! New owners, new policy. I apologize for any inconvenience caused and will schedule another meeting soon. regards, Adrian Schlemmer info@sydneytokenkai.com

G'day all, For those of you organizing to come to the Sydney Taikai and NTHK Shinsa in September you may also want to make the time to see the display at the Art Gallery of NSW organized by Colin McDonald. It is always beautifully presented and of excellent quality. The Art Gallery is a pleasant 10 minute walk from the Metro Sydney Central hotel where the Shinsa is being held again this year. I will get in touch with Colin and see what his plans are for making a presentation during the weekend of the Shinsa so we don't have an overlap with our educational presentations. Hope we see many of you then. regards, Adrian Schlemmer info@sydneytokenkai.com

Bump, 4.4.2011 , refer to first post for the latest update. regards, Adrian Schlemmer event co-ordinator info@sydneytokenkai.com http://www.sydneytokenkai.com

Hi Folks, Yes, I'm up and about. Thanks for the kind wishes from so many of my friends on this forum and Facebook etc. As for those of you who would like to submit swords and fittings to the Sydney NTHK Shinsa and cant make it along. Unfortunately the organizers can not accept unaccompanied pieces for Shinsa. But all is not lost. I've already spoken to some of the dealers attending the Shinsa and they will soon be offering this service for a handling fee. I'd like to call on them to also post here if they can offer this service. I would also suggest that local interstate groups will be helping out in this regard as they did last time. Ask around your nihonto friends and see if anyone can put you onto someone local to you who could help. Keep in mind that letting someone else handle your valuable items is always a risk, in my opinion make an extra effort and come along, you won't regret it. regards, Adrian S

Hi Guys, It seems the kodzuka ana cuts through the design on both sides and may be a lateer edition. Going by the shape and appearance (only conjection at this point) the lacquer could be quite old. It will be intersting to verify this and would be ever more intersting if it is an early survivor rather than a Meiji period bling job cheers, Adrian S

Hello Ford, We have never met, but I must say I have the utmost respect for your talents and dedication. Yes, I see you may well be right, it would be even more interesting to me if it was lacquer, I'll post to confirm when I have it in hand. Now you mention it I have seen a lacquered tsuba with similar workmanship. thanks, Adrian S

Hi Guys, Im not a Tosogu specialist by any means, but I buy what I like. I know the condition is not great but I would like some opinions as to what school and era this may be. What do you think guys? The tsuba measures 8.5cm x 7.8cm, I dont have it in hand yet, it is on the way. cheers, Adrian S P.S. rumours of my demise are premature!

Hello All, UPDATE 5.3.2011 So far the preparations for the NTHK Shinsa and Taikai are coming along well. I would like to encourage all who are thinking of attending and who would like to book slots for Shinsa to get your preferred times in as soon as possible. Here is an update so far. Friday slots - BOOKED OUT! Saturday slots - 40% booked Sunday slots - 20% booked Don't miss out, it could be a long time before we can get another Shinsa out here UPDATE 4.4.2011 The website now has full information pages for the Sydney NTHK Shinsa and Taikai, with information on location, hotel reservations etc. Please refer to the above website for the details. Dealers tables are limited and I am giving first preference to the dealers who supported us last time. If you are looking to come and book a Dealers table please send me an email ASAP as they will probably sell out within a week or two. I'm offering generous allowances for overseas dealers, please inquire. We are now taking tentative reservations for slots for the NTHK Shinsa. I need to get a good idea of how many pieces to expect as soon as possible so please send me an email and I will send back to you the Reservation Form. Submission fees are due for payment on the 1st of August, so don't be shy. UPDATE 17.12.2010 Sydney Japanese Sword Taikai and NTHK Shinsa dates Dates are finalized, the 9th to the 11th September 2011. These dates will avoid football finals and the weather in Sydney is pleasant. Please keep an eye on the this message board and the website http://www.sydneytokenkai.com for the latest news. regards, Adrian Schlemmer Event coordinator info@sydneytokenkai.com http://www.sydneytokenkai.com

Hi guys, Just a quick note to let members who may be interested know that Sydney Token Kai meeting dates for 2010 have been announced on the website. Our next meeting will be on the 20th of February 2010, hope to see a few new faces there! http://www.sydneytokenkai.com cheers, Adrian S

hi everyone, GOOD NEWS!! :D We have just got back from Japan with the oshigata from the Sydney NTHK Shinsa! Yayy! Apologies for the delays due to problems with the printers that were out of our control. Papers for the fittings and koshirae are still in Japan and are also on the way. Most of you will be receiving your papers by registered post this week. If you have changed address since attending the Shinsa, this would be a good time to let me know as I am mailing out tomorrow. Anyway, I will be in contact by email to all who left email addresses with me. cheers for now, Adrian Schlemmer info@sydneytokenkai.com

Hi all, Yasuyoshi did indeed make naginata. The top sword at the Sydney NTHK shina was a Yasuyoshi Nagamaki naoshi. My sword is not of the same proportions , but I have found many examples from the same era with similar shape and size, so it is quite possible. I bought the sword in hand from another collector, having seen the Sydney sword I can see many similarities in ji and ha. Having said that, I didn't buy the sword with too much consideration to the kinpun mei, after all they are pretty easily faked. cheers and thanks again, Adrian S

Hello Moriyama san, Thank you for your reply. Yes, I also saw the recent Aoi Art auction with the same attributor's kinpun mei. I bid on the sword too , but was outbid. Interestingly, all three examples have Hozon papers so I expect that the NBTHK knows who Tadahiro is and he is respected. Also interesting is that the Aoi Naotsuna katana has a Meiji period sayagaki mentioning the Kinpun mei, so one would assume that the mei is pre the date of the sayagaki (1896). I bought my sword on the strength of a nice blade and pretty much disregarded the attribution. Guess I will do a little more research, at this stage the mei looks very very similar... Thanks again, Adrian Schlemmer