Adrian S

G'day John, To my knowledge, the Yasukuni tatara was in Shimane prefecture in Yasugi, a long long way away from Tokyo. This is also the current tatara used by the NBTHK. You may be referring to the actual forges at Yasukuni shrine. cheers,

Hello John, Yes, you are quite right, above carbon. Which is the vast majority, only 5 elements being below Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium, Berylium and Boron. I was expecting to see Sodium but none was found in any of the samples. Information on Borax may be out of reach for now. Dave mentioned to me that the Yasukuni smith pretty much used any scrap metal and unused lower quality tamehagne for core ( and nakago ) metal. Looking more closely at the figures, the nakago on the Yasukuni looks very close to the same steel as the Kanemichi. It may well also be bessemer produced high silicon iron, interestingly a high copper reading. Maybe some recycled scrap? Is it possible that the Yasukuni smiths were also working orishigane for core steel? With tamehagne being expensive and in demand it may have been used frugally. I have heard talk in the past of the Yasukuni smiths doing a little work on the side, maybe putting aside some alocated tamehagne for these moonshine projects. Chris, what do you think? My source quotes a WW2 polisher who was working with the Yasukuni smiths at the time. Is it hearsay or do you have any first hand information from conversations with surviving Yasukuni smiths? We will need more readings from Yasukunito to make more clearer assumptions. I look forward to it. cheers,

G'day Adam and all, This is the earlier post on the machine if you missed it viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11589 The portable version of the XRF spectrometer will only give readings for the elements below carbon on the periodic scale. If you want to get a carbon reading you need the full lab version which means putting the sword into a vacuum and using laser bombardment. A different technology. For this trial we can deduce carbon from the LEC column which is the remainder. Carbon is always present and will vary anyway so it is not as important as finding other elements that are there and may be indicators as to the material used in the sword. We have been able to figure out sword construction without carbon figures anyway. When I have the other charts ready you will see some more interesting readings. cheers,

G'day all, Just to let you know. The machine has a soft plastic face with a little hole that takes the reading. We didn't move the machine on the sword, just placed it on the spot. It uses a low frequency xray, no heat applied and no polish was effected. Just in case anybody was thinking we were doing anything sacriligious. :lol: cheers

G'day all, Chris,Yes I will amend that comment, no evidence of a laminated construction , such as sanmai or gomai. John, we tried a couple of these machines in the first test. Only the best one was good enough. It cost $56K! also we had it fine tuned and calibrated before we started the trial. You will need to see if your machine can be accurate to 0.005%. As for schools etc. When you see the rest of the results, I conclude that we will be able to make some assumptions based on the type of steel and the construction but first we need to test many more swords. As for school, I don't think it will ever get that far. I will be happy to break it down to early koto, late koto, shinto, shinshinto and gendaito. The interesting thing for mumei owners everywhere is the answers to these questions. This machine will tell you the answers, even from an unpolished blade! If not the 100% answer than at least a very high probablitity answer. It can also easily detect if a sword is ubu or, a reshaped osuriage to look ubu or most importantly, a ubu nakago made to look like a osuriage older sword. The bonus is that it will also be able to detect welded on nakagos and "some" suspicious gakumei. cheers,

g'day Chris, Agreed, but I would call the blade metal in the Shigetsugu high quality clean tamehagne. It is pretty much identical to the Yasukuni blade metal. The Shigetsugu is indeed sosho mei and dated 1937 cheers,

G'day all,, Changed my mind, ok I'll go first. Remember that the Japanese started producing Bessemer process steel from sand iron in the Meiji period. Resulting in a high silicon western style steel. 1. Shigetsugu . Kobuse construction. nakago shows bessemer high silicon iron, probably also extending into the core. The blade however shows uniform clean tamehagne, same steel across the blade. No obvious laminated construction (eg sanmai ) 2. Kanemich, Kobuse construction, made by the orishigane method with high silicon bessemer steel. 3. Yoshichika. Kobuse construction, same again but with a different steel, made by the orishigane method with high silicon bessemer steel. Interestingly we found an exact match for this steel as a western steel. I would call it a Nambantetsu example. 4. Yasutoku, Kobuse construction, iron nakago (maybe a bessemer steel , but probably a "less worked" and so dirtier tamehagne), blade all made from clean tamehagne Anything you didn't already know Chris? I hope Shigetsugu made all his swords like this, some of you guys know what I'm talking about. cheers,

Here are the gendai results boys I have some opinions but would like to see what other think. Call me chicken :lol:

G'day to all, I will get some results up soon. What I can say now is that we tested swords in 5 spots. The sample test area is a 3mm round circle. 1st spot on the jiri of the nakago, then 2nd spot on the nakago closer to the blade approximately 3cm below the machi. 3rd spot 15cm from the munemachi and in the shinogi-ji beside the mune. 4th spot, again 15cm from the munemachi , but this time on the ji adjacent to the shinogi ( or in the case of hirazukuri a mid ji spot ) . The 5th spot is on the ha, again 15cm from the hamachi. In some cases we did some additional spots 3, 4, and 5 but moved up the blade another 5cm, to verify multilayer construction, as we saw a need from the results. It was very evident right from the start that the nakago and the swords were showing differences. In fact we were able to make dramatic conclusions right from the first blade! I'm not going to pre-emt the discussion until you see what I've seen, but it is very exciting indeed. Gendaito results comming soon, cheers

G'day to all, Well... we did our trial. The results surpassed my expectations! The analysis shows clear trends and information that is stunning, even shocking. A very exciting time was had by all. It will take me a day or two to get all the results into a chart format for all to share. I will be issuing the results separately, first the gendaito. I really am looking forward to Chris' imput on these results. After a healthy and heated discussion, I will post the shinto and shinshinto results, followed by the muromachi koto results. I am so happy with the trial that I will hire a machine in the new year for a week and give Sydney and Melbourne collectors a chance to have their swords tested. My data collection will focus on Gendaito, Shinshinto and Shinto. I'll keep you all posted. cheers,

g'day Raymond, Thanks, looks like this is where the information came from. Great looking sword too. cheers,

G'day all, I'm researching different steels used in nihonto during the shinto and shinshinto periods. I've come across a source that quotes Masahides's book "Kenko Hiden Shi" and states that along with Namban tetsu comming from India and Holland tetsu comming from the Dutch that "Russian tetsu" was also being used. I have never heard of Russina steel in nihonto. Can anybody else colaborate the use of Russian steel?? As far as Holland tetsu goes, I have heard some opinions that it was in fact "English Shear steel" but can find no reference to the fact. Has anybody seen this in print as well? cheers,

G'day Dave and all, This page from Hitachi describes the developmemt of western style steel production in Japan beginning in early Meiji. http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/tatara/nnp0205.htm It also describes a sunstancial increase in the importation of western steel. I would assume that nihonto made during this era used the orishigane method of reworking western steel and "western type" Japanese steel. Since tamehagne was not being produced, it is a fair assumption. cheers,

G'day Brian, Thanks, my main concern was making sure a copy is still online. I wouldn't know the first place to look to ask his family. For that reason I made sure the pages were properly attributed. He didn't put any copyright statement on his originals and I am sure he would have wanted the knowledge spread and used for the betterment of new collectors. If anyone in his family shows concern I would be disappointed but would comply to remove the pages. cheers,

G'day Chris, Take a look at the trade map on the second page. Can you make much out of that? It seems to show different sources associated with different time periods. If it does I'll get my wife onto translating the whole map for me. Also, adding weight to the "B word" debate is this information. Don't know if this link will click through, may need Brian's help. It suggests the use of animal fats for storage and the dominance of the trade by the Dutch starting in the 17th century. Scroll up the page too, it describes a little about an introduction date of the "B word" into China of just after 762A.D. Hmm... the plot thickens http://books.google.ca/books?id=imMJJP5 ... ry&f=false cheers,

Hello All, Since my wife is back her expert internet research skills found these pages. The first page seems to be some Japanese sampling and results. The second page may only interest some http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_034.htm http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_130.htm My rudimentary skills at translating with Babelfish and her help makes me read that copper may be a good prospect for an indicator. Even though this sample size is very small, it does show some promising figures. I was never thinking of a Nambokucho barrier, but that prospect would be interesting indeed. It would be interesting to see what a large cross sectional database would yield. Any of our Japanese readers like to comment on this information? cheers,

G'day to all, Just a heads up. I was looking for some information last week that I knew was on Jim Kurrasch's website. The original website is long gone, but I knew that a copy was available through an internet archive server. To my horror I found that pages and some images have been lost. I have decided to reproduce what is left on my website and ask the group if they may have some of the information lost (images and text) available to get in touch with me. I have written a small tribute and have properly attributed authorship. I am sure he would'nt have minded me keeping his legacy alive. Here is my site. http://www.sydneytokenkai.com cheers,

G'day Ford and Chris, My apologies to you both. In reading my earlier posts I have realized that yes I have made some strong assumptions with no real basis in fact. Too excitable I guess. It is funny how the human mind works because I have had some hunches and assumptions about the assimilation of mainland technologies into Japan for so long that in the end my mind almost accepts them as concrete facts. That being said, the information and arguments that have come forth are exemplary and have inspired new trains of though and new directions for my research. Its too bad we don't have a forum here for the "hypothetical and the hypnotical" where debates can take a lighter approach but I guess we may be getting into too many crackpot theories. I would really like to get some thoughts and research from others concerning naturally occurring properties found in clays local to sword manufacturing centers. As had been pointed out, we may be barking up the wrong tree. I will open a new thread with the trial results and then we will all sit back and either go "wow" or "what a shame that didn't work" :lol: Until then I had better get back to doing some work and paying attention to my new wife. cheers,

G'day Adam, You are quite correct, ultimately we will need multiple samples from each school and even from the same smiths. To assembly such information will take some time. What we are doing here is a trial only, not assembling any data yet. Primary goals are. 1) Establish the feasibility and accuracy of this technology for our purpose 2) Establish the presence of variables i.e chemical compounds and specifically trace metals in the finished Japanese swords If these goals are not met then no further study is warranted at this time. For this reason I have assembled swords which I feel would give us the best chance to achieve these primary goals Secondary goals, Added bonus would be 1) Discovering "possible" indicators that may be present to determine tamahagne or western steel or other as the source material 2) Discovering "possible" indicators that will with more data determine school characteristics. This is a trial only. If we can achieve the primary goals then we can assess where to go from there. Roger Robertshaw has a nice collection of multiple pieces from the same school active over a long period, namely Hizento. That is the sort of collection that will prove invaluable. cheers, Adrian S

G'day Ford, I think that you will see that the Hitachi article is quite old, they also state in the same article. How long ago was that! When was the tatara operational? Are they talking about a different tatara? Come on! I wouldn't want to put egg on the face of Hitachi metals, it may be old information. And from Wikipedia That would date that article to pre 1977. To be honest when I read the from Hitachi I nearly choked on my lunch. This page from the same website shows a substancial amount of impurities in the different sources of iron sand in Japan. http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/tatara/nnp020603.htm What I am trying to do is discover how many of these elements ( particularly metallic ) survive to the finished product. Maybe Hitachi was referring to tramp or "unwanted elements" such as Phosphorus and Sulfur not being present in tamehagne. I am quite sure the ancient Japanese didn't have high tech. purifying equipment needed to extract the pure iron from other metallic elements. O.k., I'm assuming, but its a safe bet. I'll shut up for now. cheers, Adrian S

G'day Chris and all, I understand your arguments completely and agree. The smiths can alter the carbon content and to some extent add other elements. What I'm thinking is adding elements is a lot easier than "removing elements". I am hoping that the metallic elements such as nickel, titanium , cobalt etc. in small quantities will survive the production processes intact. These elements are not so easily removed from the kera under any circumstances, even if you wanted too. That's not an assumption, like I said, I'm hoping. Right now, I don't know. Again I am hoping that some indicators may vary greatly, some should remain constant to the raw material and the schools production process. This will never be accurate enough to discern the individual smith's work and correlation with source materials may also be in the "too hard" basket. It's the chance of building a broad base of information that is unique here, and that in itself will pose more questions. Let's all see what the first trials show before we make any assumptions. I, for one, don't want to end up with any more egg on my face! Ford, I respect Pierre's opinion and he quote's another non-Japanese smith, but remember he is talking from his own experience and that of his sensei's, I would guess. Chris on the other hand has interacted with dozens of modern smiths. Chris has pretty much stated that Borax is used as a flux by many modern Japanese smiths and he has seen it with his own eyes. I'm quite willing to drop the Borax assumption of early introduction for now because we don't have any evidence yet of it's use in older "Japanese" swords. I will quite happily. so let's leave historical use of Borax alone for now. But to contend that it is not feasible to use Borax with tamehagane or that it is not used today, flies in the face of what Chris has witnessed. To quote yourself. Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense. We need these questions clearly verified and put to bed. Please understand my concern and I'm not trying to be funny here. 1) "Is it possible and practical to use Borax as a flux with tamehagne?" Yes or no 2) "Is it indeed being used as a flux with tamehagne by any modern Japanese smiths" Yes or no 3) "How prevalent is its use today?" research needed or Chris what can you tell us please, do you know more I don't post much to these forums, but when I do it is because I have something important to present. This one is important on many levels, it needs to be sorted out clearly. more again soon, Adrian S

G'day to all...again, Chris, I would think that a broad spectrum database of swordsmiths group technical data would be of some great benefit to the Shinsakuto smiths. Do you think we may find out a little more about how to reproduce old school jihada? Is there any pertanent questions we may be looking for answer for? Just wondering... cheers, Adrian S

G'day to all, Yes thanks Ford, I have ordered Science and the Past. I have got the first trial all organised for next week. I'll post results and photos. Before we jump to conclusions about fluxes, contaminents etc. , lets see what the trial turns up. I was just throwing out a hypothetical about the Borax in my excitement ( not a hypnotical ). I'm just crossing my fingers that the results show some promise. Personally I think there is a long road ahead, but I'm very excited about the prospects. One thing I can assure you all, there will be no secrets, I will keep nothing back, good or bad. "IF" this technology shows some promise, big "IF", then we can move on to the next step. Until then don't loose any sleep over the possible consequenses. cheers for now, Adrian S

G'day Chris, That would be great, thanks. In the meantime, if anyone else has the NBTHK experiment to hand I would be very interested to see it. Yeah yeah, Yoshichika, well I'm not a gendai guy I guess, I leave that to Dave. cheers, Adrian S

G'day Chris, I'll happily concede to your superior knowledge on Yasuchika. The NBTHK article should be interesting, I don't have it, but as it pertains to newly made tamehagne and it will be useful as indicators of how well the material retained some alloying elements in the finished swords, I wouldn't mind a copy if you could dig it up. Let me know if you can find it. Do you remember any conclusions they made? cheers, Adrian S