R_P

See i like this direction @Matsunoki. There is absolutely a huge markup. For instance if we buy a house off plan in a swanky neighbourhood and finally pay off the house and it's value drops the developer still made a killing. It can happen with a house in the best district depending on many factors but what is more likely is that having an item with all the factors built in helps. Is the house in good selling condition or does it need work, is the property in a desirable neighbourhood or indeed an up and coming neighbourhood (top end Gendaito), is it fully certified and all relevant paperwork cleared, you can add cherries on top later, as in John Lennon was living in it previously or Ronaldo is just down the road or whatever you want in provenance, and there will be a higher likelihood of the sale being sound after a given period of time as long as the economy is not collapsing around us into hell.

That depend on so many factors, come with a scenario and an example and start a seperate thread and let's discuss that. But risk is risk especially for the unprepared and uneducated in any subject.

Well Jussi the sword that was your favourite in the museum didn't come at a juyo level mumei price tag right? If anyone knows the purchase price it must be in your database, so what was it? Quite a bill im sure. So I like your taste in what you define as not the best sword, that's high taste indeed cannot wait to see what you call mediocre good man.

If you want your first lesson to be what not to buy again then yes I agree this is very good school of thought and direction. I do agree that diamond hunting plays a big part of it, every now and then we see that one unicorn pop up and we say wow, what a lucky find and if that is your thing then keep doing the metal detector on a beach thing because that is exactly what it is, or high stakes gambling, wait, low stakes gambling that eventually gets heavy. The pieces that speak to you change over time let's be real. You can look at a masame sword in terrible condition and fall for Masame specifically and then you see, Norikatsu in Tokubetsu Hozon or Gassan Sadakatsu in Masame and that spoke to you again and then you see Hosho and that is when you met the love of your life. Its all subjective. Point being no one said just sit and don't see swords. Go see swords and see others mistakes and other wins and then see museum pieces and your local meetings, such a gift to have local societies, go to them and see swords, go to you friends house who has 195 swords and your other friends house with 3 swords. Go to see and to learn before some dealer tells you that you should buy this now "if you're starting out" because it's ok to get burned, no one should accept that, we wouldn't in other areas of our lives, why here? Its learned toxic practices. How can it be elitist to say "save your money educate yourself, no one can substitute knowledge" our parents are all elitist then. Our accountants should be shot!

This is the same risk with anything Brano. You know what I am trying to say here...more than most you know.

Sorry but why are you assuming you know anything about me and what my values are here. That's also an assumption. Its very simple I've pushed a button that has started you off and you like to get that last word so please have at it. I'm not seeing when this thread became about you with full respect. Its simple im asking why people react like YOU (i mean you've made my case for me) when it comes to being patient before buying. It is about money as when that warm fuzzy feeling fades away and the time comes to sell, it's very much about how that sale makes you feel. People leave this hobby in droves every year because of shoddy toxic practices like just buy what you see first and if it's cheap it's ok to get burned...don't go into the fire in the first place.

Please relax, no teddies have been harmed in the making of this thread. So you need to sell lower tier items to build a top tier armour collection, also understandable. I'm only insulting dealers that choose to knowingly sell lower tier items for higher prices than they should. Since you're not a dealer no inslut made and none was ever intended. If a dealer sells a low tier item for exactly what it's worth, you cannot fault them for it, but you can dissuade people from making the mistakes of buying them, also no fault in that, it's called risk assessment.

Yes that is my absolute point. Just apply the same frame to the right era. Say Gendaito, learning over time and say saving 8k USD to enter the world of Gendaito, tell me, wouldn't you have your pick of the best? Maybe not one but a few of the best? The point is the same just applied to the direction, now you are coming form the stand point of having a general direction in this hobby and focusing on a theme for a collection but this takes learning and experience also, right?

Yep, so I need to see the sword in question, and understand exactly what process and motivation you had and etc etc, its a trick question

Sorry are you speaking as a dealer, if you're a dealer then your point of view is understandable. You need to sell so asking people to save to buy goes against a dealers flow for lower tier items. This is understandable and i have been a victim of as have most new nihonto collectors. In that case maybe, like most other dealers you shouldn't take this thread too seriously. You say knowledge is necessary but only to your chosen level...I think most people choose to never stop learning anything, I mean most right, it's human nature to be a perpetual student of life and everything in it. Learning the right way or the hard way, well that is definitely the choice here. What do you mean when you say, they own one sword they may have bought badly? As I said with a few years of experience both practical and theoretical so they might be far better prepared not to buy badly right? *this a small disclaimer for @Matsunoki to remember to use your inner happy voice when reading this.

There is no temper, it's how you're reading it, try a different voice a happy one or an indifferent one perhaps? So what makes my last statement utterly rubbish? Tut tut, temper temper.

@Matsunoki just to remind you in the middle of this thread on page 1 you will see i was talking about saving for a budget of 8k USD (plus) for a decent first purchase or second or 3rd and nothing to do with unicorn blades you keep thinking we or I am pushing here. And I never said don't buy what you like, everyone buys what they like or convinces themselves they like it for 2 reasons, they haven't seen anything better or they don't have the patience to expand their budgets so tell themselves this is the best 3k USD blade in the whole DTI (because i don't want to see anything i cannot afford, so HA!). Whatever chip you have on your shoulder it's naginata size bro. The NBTHK clearly has an idea of what constitutes a great blade, so does Tanobe sensei and plenty of other governing authority in our hobbies orbit. So let's get that straight and get back to the topic of why people tell collectors they should be willing to shoot from the hip without taking the time to see what's out there and be happy to lose huge sums on the resale. Its a toxic trait in this hobby. Its also completely avoidable, unless you are the guys with 195 so so swords to sell and need to convince 195 people to buy them. One thing we can all agree on is that any new comer or existing collector that saves for a 8k to 12k USD sword even if it takes 5 years will in the end of that 5 years have amazing options available to them for that one statement piece. And if it's a beginner that is armed with 5 years of educational experience, practical and theoretical, well the world is their oyster at that point.

There are some Mihara swords that i will always remember and love, it's just an overlooked school. You are right that etiquette in how to handle and conserve swords is important. I think the more experienced the more you see good and bad, even a bad sword shows it's good points with more experienced eyes.

To each their own it's a board of views and discussion

I am speaking about how long anyone should wait before making a purchase. lets try for hypotheticals and in this scenario we older collectors might have experienced these issues that all newer collectors should hope to avoid. Let us say I want a Hizen blade. Hizen as a school was prolific in manufacture and there are so many options it is quite the conundrum. If I was new to the hobby or and older collector new to Hizen I would buy two different swords depending on the educational level. Education takes time, again Why is saving for a sword a taboo when it gives you time? A new collector might go in and say I want Hizen and I do not want to pay much so they will buy Hozon Hizen which is from a later generation, in an ok polish and has 3 mekugi ana, is suriage, has no koshirae and they will get exactly that for a stellar price. A more experienced collector may say I want to get Hizen from a certain generation and know why that generation and they may say I want it Ubu and Zaimei with date, etc and who is making the better purchase, the one who learned more obviously, saving does not mean not INVESTING TIME but gives us more options would you not say? Then you have the other spectrum where someone is looking at why Shodai is valued at this price and from this period who will look at Juyo oshigata for Shodai and see the variables, who will then look at Nidai in the same way and Mutsu in the same way and understand down the line why they are what they aren why they important as indiviual specimens. Maybe they cannot hope to own a Mutsu Juyo at 76CM nagasa in flawless condition but the fact that you understand and see has its own merritts as @Gakusee has stated. Beacuse you also understand what you see. How long you should wait to get to that point is up to you and as a person. The point I want to make is that if you want to sit with a sword for 20 years in your collection and eventually find that inflection point of when it is a good time to sell it minimizing the loss as much as possible, maybe realising a profit or etc, then it better be something that you want to look at for 20 years without having a feeling that, damn, I got this then I saw that now i need to sell this lose X amount (diminishing my budget for the next one that I want) saving to add to the loss and by the time I get to that point of what I want, the one i really wanted is gone and I have to wait all over again or settle for something that ,well, puts me back in square 1.

Thanks for resting my point on assumption;)

@Jussi Ekholm see now wives, that's an expensive hobby that is guaranteed to cost you 50% of your assets upon exit.

Absolutely and I am one of the few who openly discuss money as examples of how over 20 years of custodianship the swords were let go at the right time, 2 decades is a long time to wait wouldn't you say? And I would really appreciate if you would put into proper context the entire flow of facts and statements as taking excerpts is misleading and a low form attack. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys everyone knows that, it's a universal fact. If you do not consider money in any purchase then I cannot hope to understand you and neither you me as we all consider monetary policy before purchasing anything really. The consideration is far greater the more you spend or are willing to spend. Everyone pops their cherry and is so enamoured over their first then you move on and see the first was an ok sword then you see museums, private collections and the dti and then you think there is so much more out there. So why not save to get to what's out there?

I can say that it was a choice to choose education, community building and advice over rushing. You cannot disagree with something you have not experienced yourself.

Please let us not assume my interest in monetary. I would like this to be a general discussion and not personalised in any form, gentlemanly. Market metrics asside assuming that you will make a loss before buying anything is not a good place to start on anything. Fun? I have had so much fun and met so many and seen in my collection of now vs my 150 swords in 2016 a lot of learning curves. I have sold off most of what was not in my wheel house or collecting direction anymore. If you spend time on anything you are automatically investing (time the greatest commodity) all our time has a value. Swords took me to Japan 6 times a year when I was still unmarried and fancy free whic in itself was time so well invested that I will never fail to see the ROI in this collecting field. The only place I feel cheated is when I have Sushi outside of Japan and have to pay rediculous prices, absolute robbery! I have it on fine authoritythat you yourself waited patiently for 8 years before making your first purchase a friend told me That is admirable and a lesson to everyone considering this hobby.

Interesting, would you elaborate on the sword, paper and how you lost money? I have no idea why people would go into collecting to accept losing 50% not a good idea. Anyway wouldn't Tokubetsu Juyo, Odachi with niku and Kenzen be better? we said no budget

So in these past few threads can we say that there is a reluctance to spend because in the beginning there is no confidence, education, uncertainty and when we get more confidenet we spend more? I have seen Gendaito blades that I would call Masterwork, Shinsakuto Masterworks, as so on. Example is a Okubo Kazuhira that I showed to Tanobe Sensei. He immediately stopped and looked at me quite blank, he said he does not do sayagaki on new swords....I was so scared I had offeneded him. He then said, but on this I will do. I have not seen any other Shinsakuto with his Sayagaki, he likened the blade to a copy of Sadamune and loved the sword for what it was, a modern Masterwork. Collectors are collectors the difference is not what I think it is more on the mitigating factors such as what one defines as quality, you get quality at 5000 dollars and at 5 million dollars, what is the defenition of quality? Is it about the availibility of comparible examples? Jussi I do not understand this post from someone as patient as you you have an analytical database that can all to the table any sword we have probably seen online and otherwise and yet the selective timeframe is long, if budget was no object then I would love to know what you would buy for your top 5? Riddle me that and I know you will say some amazing names and blades

Never regretted a sale as it helped pay for something better down the line.

Thank you for your service. Happy to help.

Ok let us ignore the Hanwei stuff/ China replica as they have no bearing here. Instead we will look at O-Kissaki to start. Most collectors new and old have some love for O-Kissaki but on that mountain there are Kings (none in your budget) and there are outliers that can be surprising. When looking at O-Kissaki you will have 3 eras to observe. We know O-Kissaki started in the Nanbokucho era and some can be found in the early Muromachi period then going into the ShinShinto eras and finally you get them in Modern times. Some of the Kings of O-Kissaki are: Nanbokucho (Koto) Chogi, Shizu, Naoe Shizu, Nobukuni, Kencho, Hasabe, Motoshige, Kanemitsu, Norishige (period specific, he later changed to Heian Sugata), Kunimitsu, etc, etc but to help you see them you can see these links (not for buying but observing, I am using online links as most people do not buy books anymore, why? no idea.) * Note that in the downloads section in the NMB you will find a lot of material also. https://markussesko.com/articles/ https://www.sho-shin.com/ https://www.nihonto-museum.com/collection/masamune-no-jittetsu https://www.nihonto-museum.com/collection/sadamune-no-santetsu From the Muromachi you will see things like this: https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords2/KT219471.htm (not exactly O-Kissaki but still a powerful Sugata. I have seen this one in hand in Osaka and I think the day will come when it walks into TJ, but that is another thread). Going into the ShinShinto you will see the kings of O-Kissaki are Satsuma, Kiyomaro and his school https://www.nihonto-museum.com/collection/satsuma-province-swordsmiths https://taiseido.biz/products/detail/pg93.html Those are just a few examples. But you have a budget so scouring through what little liks I have in your budget we can find a few items like so (Japan only as you want to buy there) I have taken liberty to go from 400K to 800K JPY. https://www.tsuruginoya.com/items/a00646.html https://www.tsuruginoya.com/items/a00659.html (Naginata Naoshi, not O-Kissaki but might still get the heart pumping. Note that Naginata Naoshi do not retain value very well and is a have a specific type of collector that appreciates them) https://world-seiyudo.com/product/ska-120124/ (will paper for sure) https://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/S72306_S1304_PUP_E.html (will not paper because the smith is still living, I think?) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-988.html 9not magnificent O-Kissaki but a nice Kissaki in terms of shape, condition is another story) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-811.html 9more of an Iaido sword, smith is still alive) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-911.html (Nobukuni has archetypical sword styles and this isn't really one of them but for the sugata it is ok. Condition is polished down so you might be buying a sugata and shape you like but very little to learn from) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-846.html (strange one but papered. Condition issues as polished down and Muromachi) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-878.html (not O-Kissaki but nice Sugata and could be papered in the future with Koshirae it would be a nice starter) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-467.html (Issues on the Nakago, Massive sword, unkown school but has papers, needs a polish to bring out the disco) https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords5/NT329440.htm (will paper in the future, I think the smith is still alive) https://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords11/NT334358.htm (will paper, to get masame right on a sword this long is a feat on its own, but needs a polish maybe) https://www.touken-matsumoto.jp/en/product/ichiran/tachi_and_katana These are a few suggestions based on your O-Kissaki comment but if you want to narrow it further then Era, Hamon, Jigane, etc needs to come into play. There is no shame in buying a ShinShinto to Modern sword if forged well and has elements of learning just for the Hamon, Jigane, hataraki and such. If you want something more in the future you will have no issues selling them (especially if papered) and then going forward. No you do not need to lose money but be smart about it. Now in Unicorn teritory you will find swords at high prices but keep in mind that Unicorns have specific buyers and you have to hold it for a long time as oposed to fater moving lower priced items. Remember that when you really know what you want, gravitating to a Unicorn and having just the one sword collection is an achievement on its own. You dont have to have Osaka castles collection to have a great sword collection, you just need that one. And no, do not just buy what you like, you will like a lot of stuff at this stage, the point is to progress. We all had lots of lovers but in general we are working through a process of elimination to find the one. Before you go gallivanting into dealers in Japan please learn the proper etiquette before hand of handelling the swords as mistakes here will get you thrown out and the community is so small that word spreds. You won't find anything after that. Also make appointments and send them the links to the swords you want to see. Buy from the right dealers and you will build a great relationship. Buy from the sharks and you will be used and abused all week. Caution: Aoi Art swords: This dealer is very approachable and it is hit and miss with them so you really need to know what you are looking at and for. https://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2025/25235-2.jpg https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-sakuyo-bakkashi-hosokawa-masamori-kao/ (One of my favorite ShinShinto smiths) Others you might like: https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A060224.html https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_en_tachi&katana_A101024.html https://www.e-sword.jp/katana/2510-1069.htm (The interesting thing with swords like this is they will paper if the Mei is intact and the smith is no longer alive. Then you really have a full parcel) https://www.samurai-nippon.net/smp/item/P-852.html (condition issues) When you narrow stuff down we can go into pro and con of each, at this price range there are always cons and it is an accepted known.