Hokke

First, let me say that I haven't had the occasion to use the downvote button, because my interpretation of it is likely different from others. That said, I am unaware of any rules specifically governing its use. That is to say no strict guidelines pertaining to how someone must "feel" in order to use it properly. As such, it would seem like the downvote button is a freedom afforded all who participate on this forum and every member has to right to use it according to their own individual interpretation of its meaning. This includes interpretations that others, perhaps even the majority, may find petty or pedantic. I haven't seen any cartoons or animated projections on this site that would otherwise appeal to a juvenile mindset. This is one of the many things that I appreciate about this site specifically. As such, it would also indicate we are all adults here and if there are those among us who are incapable of having a downvote cast on a post without taking it "personally", then I would say there are much larger issues in play. Having said that, irony unignored, this post may be responsible for my very first downvote, perhaps cast out of spite, a trait that although commonly found in adults, is in itself childish. Be that as it may, I can assure you my sleep will be unencumbered were this to happen, because I CHOOSE to make it so. Those who appreciate what I say....great. Those who disapprove......great. That's how the world works. So, how about we all take a deep breath and settle ourselves in the notion that we participate on this forum to contribute what we can and learn what we can. How that plays out to the masses, is on the masses and the very idea of trying to control it is quite futile.

Dont know if it's gimei, im far from educated enough to make that determination. It came with full koshirae which rendered the blade nearly a freebee for the price. Im accustomed to seeing blades coming out of Japan that are in unrestored condition, old polish, oxidation etc...but not like this. I guess DIYers are in Japan too, I dunno, just expected this condition to be more likely found here in the states I guess.

Im curious why how you came to interested in tsuba in the first place. Is it just tsuba or all tosogu? Personally, I think you have to ask yourself WHY? Here's some basic questions that may help you along your way: Why tsuba? Is it the art, history, value? What do you want to do with the tsuba you purchase? Own them to appreciate them or try to find good deals so you can trade/sell them for profit? What is your budget, how much are you trying to invest? Do you want to own many inexpensive tsuba, or a few high quality tsuba How deep do you want to get into it? Do you have access or plan to attend events, like NTHK and sword shows? Orlando, San Francisco, Chicago etc.... I think these are important for you to consider since we are not talking about items that are $10-$20 that can be found in relative abundance here in the states. Sure, there are plenty of dealers and private sellers, but unlike stamps, Japanese tsuba were only produced in Japan whereas stamps were made in countries all over the world and thus are likely going to be far more plentiful, not to mention span a price spectrum that makes them far more affordable. It seems you "like" tsuba for whatever the reason and I think thats great, but if you "loved" tsuba, I dont know if you would be struggling to decide if you should enter the club. So, that leaves just one last question, do you want to "collect" and spend your money on something you like, or something you LOVE? Just my $.02

So I just picked this up and while it hasn't arrived yet and I haven't seen it in person, I'm curious as to why it could be in such a condition. If it were here in the states, I would assume someone picked it up at a garage sale and went to town on it as a DIY. But no, this is coming out of Japan and im curious if anyone has ideas as to why it was taken this far down and left there. First thing I thought was maybe to hide kizu, but no damage was mentioned, which doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it's a reputable dealer. I did not pay much for it, so it doesn't really matter to me either way, just surprised its wasn't at least evened out to a consistent base finish.

One of things that really bothers me about the world we now live in, is the premise that for every rule there is ALWAYS a loop hole. This is why laws are a joke now. No matter the law, theres a lawyer somewhere who has found a loop hole to exploit which frees his client from consequence. This thread seems to be no exception. First let's dispel the obvious. When someone is looking to buy and old rusty nihonto, they have already made up their mind as to what they are going to do with it. They KNOW their finances and whether or not they can afford restoration services. So the idea that someone buys a rusty nihonto and then has this internal contemplation of whether or not they should attempt any level of restoration is, IMO, unrealistic. So, let's say you (a complete novice) bought a rusty nihonto because the price seemed too good to pass up. What do you do now? You find your way to NMB as many do and post pictures. Those with wisdom and experience here tell you the blade is in too poor condition to give any information and so its advised for you to have a window polished. At this point you can do one of two things. You can ignore this advice and attempt rust removal yourself, effectively severing any assistance in doing so by members here, or, you can have a window cut and those same members here will be happy to review the pictures and provide more information. Either way, the choice is yours. What is being suggested here by some, so far as I can tell, is that NMB should carve out a loophole and start providing evoporust type recommendations. Really? The issue here is very simple, where does NMB draw the line? If you advocate for DIY restoration at ANY level, fine. But be prepared for that loop hole to be used to solicit additional info on DIY restoration and now we are SBG. Word gets out that the accumulated knowledge of NMB is now open for every novice to come in a flood the boards with the same question, "how do i take this rust off my blade?" Members here either want this or they dont....simple issue, simple answer.

I dont think I have ever seen nihonto that I would refer to as unacceptable, so I agree with you. The only thing I would "object" to is if you were a pirate selling this piece and did not price it accordingly. I am certain there have instances when flaws like this were marketed as "battle scars" to unsuspecting tourists in this genre. Aside from that, owning any nihonto from 14th century is a fortunate thing, especially for me, since that is by far my favorite era.

Your point is well received with regards to individual freedoms, however, I dont think anyone here has proposed any ownership mandate. If you own an item you are free to do with it as you please. It seems to me the problem arrises if an individual comes to this forum and says "hey everybody, look at the polish I did......I dont need no stinking 6+ year apprenticeship". Because if you accept this level of participation on this forum, it opens the door to a whole host of other content......content UNFOCUSED on nihonto and its preservation as an art form.

Im curious how this topic has devolved into something strictly monetary. Having read this entire thread, a couple of times now, it seems to me that the main points being conveyed are as follows: 1. If you're not planning to learn how to properly restore nihonto traditionally, the majority here recommend you DON'T try. This has NOTHING to do with potentially owning a masterpiece, it's about respect for the art. 2. If you choose to attempt restoration of nihonto through means other than traditional, the majority here will not support your efforts with information on how to do so. 3. If you are looking for political correctness and/or praise for your non-traditional methods, there ARE sites out there where you will find it, but this is not one of them. This of course is my interpretation and I am unaware of any official poll that has determined actual majority opinion here, so please feel free to correct me if I have presumed too much.

I agree as others of said that smaller items like kiridashi or mekuginuki would be more ideal since it wouldn't be limited to just one smith. That of course still leaves the problem of logistics. How many smiths willing to participate for smaller pieces, how many pieces produced and as mentioned before, who is going to represent NMB members for shipping and any potential issues? Many years ago Mr. Martin (in a smaller endeavor than the one listed above) did something similar. He had a run of small mekuginuki, made from tamahagane in the shape of nakago signed by the smith. It's currently buried in the back of my safe and I cant recall the details, but as I remember it was a success in terms of sales distribution. Mr Martin was the one spearheading it and I dont know what % of funds actually went to the smith, but it seems feasible to do something similar and I would certainly be onboard.

Bruce makes a fine point and I agree. There is one looming question that never seems to be answered without sarcasm or defensiveness on this issue. The question is......WHY? I'll come back to this. I am a Gen Xer, arguably that last generation worth a damn when it comes to common sense and understanding the value of a hard days work. The societal mantra of today however, seems to be, buy anything you want and once owned, it's yours to destroy. Technically, this is true, but it certainly speaks volumes about those who adhere to such a concept. That said, there are more reasons than ever to adhere to this philosophy as we live in a world where being provocative can be profitable. Profitable in that people will pay good money to someone unqualified because they think there is a chance they have found a bargain. It's profitable for those who make a living on social media poking the bear on long standing traditions just for views and comments, hoping it will go viral and in turn be profitable in the long term. What I find interesting is that usually when you find DIYers, what you DONT find is passion. However, if you do happen to find what they are ACTUALLY passionate about and apply the same "own it, destroy it" concept, all of a sudden the light bulb goes on. So, back to my initial question, WHY? I am not asking why someone would choose to attempt a polish on nihonto, My question is why would you begin your journey into polishing on nihonto when there are literally hundreds of thousands of modern made blades out there at your disposal to ruin? The answer is always going to be the same, because THEY DONT CARE. DIYers dont care about the history, they dont care about the discipline, and they dont care what any of us think. The world is theirs and we are just living in it and you know what, they have every "right" to feel this way. What they DONT have a right to do is expect any help or guidance on a forum like this where members DO care. I firmly believe that the only thing we can do is abstain from lending any guidance or wisdom even in its most basic forms, which seems to be the case here. Will this stem the problem of DIYers ruining art, even poor quality art, NOPE, but it certainly won't make it easier for them. The issue for many is being able to abstain, assertively. Loosing composure and employing sarcasm or other such snobbery only, IMO, only serves to weaken our community as a whole. The best conversation we can have on DIY polishing, IMO, is NO conversation at all, crickets. No flipping out as Bruce alluded to, no condemnation or other public shaming......just crickets.

Greetings all, While I have only just become an official member of this community, I have been a long time viewer. I am very fortunate to have had the opportunity to mingle in the same circles as those far more knowledgeable than I in all things nihonto. That said, having been a jeweler for over two decades this thread seems as good as any to see my first post. Although I have only worked in precious metals, there may be some similarities when discussing production. I am a custom jeweler, meaning customers bring me images or drawing of jewelry designs and I build them from scratch. Although I leaned how to do this on a completely handmade level during my apprenticeship, I quickly found it was far more advantageous to utilize a CAD/CAM system of production. I say this because technically, while my designs are one of a kind and custom, the items I make are NOT 100% handmade. This now leads into a discussion about value. If I make a ring and the cost to produce it is 4k, I would argue the value of that ring is in the fact that it is one of a kind, made by a competent craftsman, coupled with the sum of its parts. An identical ring made completely by hand where the metal is rolled cut and formed is going to be more expensive, however, will it be more valuable or superior in its construction? I would argue no, for a few reasons that at this point are unimportant. Now let's bring this back to the discussion at hand. Dan's repeated and unrelenting question has persisted through this thread. Is it possible for cast iron tsuba to have been cast in the Edo period. IMO, the answer is yes, however unlikely. I say unlikely, as others have previously, because I believe it would not have been a secret. Casting was not a frowned upon means of production. If casting tsuba was a method being used, I very much believe it would be well documented considering the number of craftsmen that were producing tosogu in that period. I believe it plausible to have been done using a method that would have produced a superior result compared to what we can create today and the recipe for that process was lost. I dont find this likely, but accept it was possible. If I have to play devils advocate, I actually believe more in the idea that has already been proposed in this thread of a possible hybrid method of tsuba manufacture. Perhaps there was a method by which cast iron was cast into blank plates saving the craftsman from having to start from scratch. The only reason why I still find this dubious is because of my experience as a craftsman in my own discipline. As a jeweler, there are items I have made which required basic skills that would seem really time consuming to the layperson. Muscle memory and years of repetitive practice have made these skills quite ordinary and not as time consuming as one may imagine. So with that in mind I have to ask if cast blanks were available, would they have actually been so labor saving that it was beneficial to use them? For me, I would say no. So where does this leave us? The question I have been asking myself is why Dan seems so desperate to have this hypothesis realized? Dan if you are reading this, what is your ultimate goal in this pursuit? When will you have the requisite satisfaction that allows you to move "onward"? Until such a time as you can provide empirical evidence to prove you claim, you have only "faith". Continued posting of anything else other than definitive evidence would seem to be only for the purposes of provocation. You are free to do so of course as this is a public forum, but it does seem as if the horse is well and truly beaten at this point. Nevertheless, I hope you are able to eventually find what you are seeking.