Robert S

My first instinct is that this blade has not been shortened, looking at the hamon. The nakago could have been shortened, but again, I'm not seeing it at first glance.

What a gargantuan mess, Neil. Unbelievable. We don't have those problems (yet) in Canada, fingers crossed.

I think it is very nice, and yes, someone may fall for it and be happy. That being said, I do think it's a bit of a tough market now, and truthfully NBTHK hozon papered koto katana in good koshirae from a less well known or regarded maker can be had for a similar price.

You can see that it was "buffing good" alright, probably with a power buffer, which has completely blurred the shape (even of a "hideous Chinese fake") :-)

That nakago is... odd. The portion with the signature appears to have been attached to the sword at some point, yet the portion itself appears to be suriage. Makes me wonder if this might be a concatenation - a portion of a nakago off of a very old, broken sword attached to a different blade.

On the purely subjective side, there are those, like me, who are interested in aesthetics only, and don't particularly care about papers, attributions, value... Mind you, we run a grave risk of being the greater fool in the market as a result, but as long as we're playing with "who cares" money, that's OK. It's not that I'm not fascinated by attributions, and the historical knowledge which is so rich on this forum, but I wouldn't buy a blade with all the papers and attribution in the world if it didn't appeal to me at an aesthetic, non-intellectual level.

That discussion by Darcy is really useful. The nihonto I bought recently had red rust on the nakago, and I'm definitely oiling it deeply and repeatedly, to try to stabilize it. I think some stabilization even of black iron oxide surfaces is worthwhile, to prevent the potential onset of red rust.

It was great fun lurking i this thread. I don't know nearly enough to even have ventured a guess. Way to go everyone who did! One question: Nihon Shinto Shi mentions "shallow Sori". Looking at that blade, I wouldn't have defined the sori as shallow - more like average... but my eye is probably off.

Am I correct in thinking that what you are pointing at with the phrase "Damascus pattern" is really pattern welded steel ( which definitely does get called damascus these days). The old original Damascus steel from Europe/the Middle East was much more like Japanese nihonto steel, to my knowledge.

Shakudo when it loses its patina due to wear is bronze/copper colored, in my experience. This is distinctly brassy looking. Although there are a lot of different bronze and brass chemistries, this looks to lean on the brass side.

I really like the surface texture on that tsuba. Somewhat unusual... which doesn't add anything to school, but there it is!

Agreed that the kissaki looks like an odd hybrid shape. I wonder if this is related to reshaping following some damage (an edge chip) near the kissaki.

There will always be a significant umber of people who do things the "old way" for all kinds of reasons - the link to past sword-makers, the challenge, or just that a craft produced using different tools will always be slightly different. However, I'd bet that if the old koto sword makers had been given an opportunity to experiment with a hydraulic press, they would have, although they might not have adopted it in the end. Master craftsmen are always experimenting and learning.

Well, if you could get the second one for something like $20, it might be worth having just for the sheer awfulness of it. :-)

Thanks all for the excellent discussion on training togishi and learning polishing. Lots that I'll be thinking about further there :-)

It's a great question. Traditional apprenticeship structures are the way they are for a number of reasons: 1. They were typically training quite young people who had a lot to learn about the factors I mentioned above ( patience, etc.), and were expected to learn that not through organized learning, but mostly through osmosis, because the master didn't have time to become a full time instructor - they had to mostly continue practising their craft. 2. Similarly, they were expected to learn technique in significant part without explicate instruction (except of the "what the heck do you think you're doing, you idiot?" variety :-) - I got lots of that! ) 3. Once they had begun to get some skill, they needed to pay the master back for their skills in the form of work 4. Long apprenticeships served as a gateway which limited the number of practitioners and maintained supply and demand balance. In many other crafts we now accomplish #s 1 and 2 through focused instruction in a much shorter time, replace #3 with tuition, and are desperately shot of skilled people, so #4 no longer applies. I totally agree with the kantei part, and the relation to stone selection, etc. Again, the basics can be explicitly taught, to a significant degree - at least to a journeyman level. A master level then takes many years of practicing. You're always going to have a significant number of practitioners, whether traditionally apprenticed or not, who are working at the journeyman level... and lots of nihonto show signs of that kind of polishing - perfectly acceptable, but not inspired.

Jean: I'm fully aware of the structure of nihonto steel, and the complexities of the interaction of that steel with a natural stone. That is in fact what fascinates me. I want to start experimenting on my own knives to understand how natural stone and other materials vary in effect, including microscopic examination of the slurry and surfaces produced. Then on to older Japanese knives (pre stainless) which are more similar to nihonto (forged, folded, differentially hardened) As for whether I would try to learn how to build a violin without being taught: absolutely. I'm journeyman level in quite a number of crafts, and master level in one, and that is exactly how I have learned many of them. I just wouldn't presume to create a Stradivarius first go :-). There's a lot of talk here about technique. In my experience with training people in any craft, teaching the technique is the easy part, although it is important. The more critical parts (and the harder parts to teach) are patience, visualization (of what the desired end state is), observation ( of what effect each moment's work is having), understanding (why is that happening), and adaptation (closing the feedback loop). Some people are never able to learn those skills in a deep way. I honor and respect the knowledge and thoughts of everyone on this forum, and one of the great strengths of this group is that we don't all come from the same culture or background. The more we learn, the more fascinating it is.

John: I'm not talking about a process that would produce "ill trained grinders" :-). I am talking about a process that would allow new togishi to be trained through alternative avenues than traditional apprenticeship. I won't write the essay that I could on why traditional apprenticeship is structured the way it is, and the benefits and drawbacks of that approach, but I will say that I do not follow the "that's the way it's always been done, so that's the only way to do it" school. I was traditionally trained in one artform, and I see the improvements in results that are being achieved with more modern training methods.

Oh yes, and on the subject of stones, I'm also going to experiment with alternative options for very expensive/unavailable stones. As a knife maker, I'm very familiar with how natural stones work, and I 100% agree that substituting, for instance, ceramic artificial stones creates a very different process and result. However, I am curious whether combining industrial micro abrasives with other softer powdered materials, plus modifying the hardness of the substrate, can imitate the kind of abrasive paste which develops on a natural stones as you work it, and which is, in my opinion, key to the results that togishi achieve.

The one issue I have with a lot of this thread is that it seems to imply that polishing is a black art, which tends to dissuade people from even trying to learn it. I think we all need to be thinking carefully about how we encourage people to learn it responsibly and at least reasonably within the togishi tradition, given that we already have a shortage of polishers, and it's only likely to get worse. For myself, I am ordering in polishing stones and supplies, and I am going to start experimenting, following all the information I can gather from books, videos, etc. ... but don't worry, not on nihonto. As an occasional knifesmith, I have old blades lying around that weren't my favourites, and which have collected some rust or discolouration over the years. I'm going to see what results I can get using traditional togishi methods as best I understand them, and then move on to traditional Japanese kitchen knives, etc. Someday, years from now, if I'm getting consistently repeatable and high quality results with those, then yes, I will work on a cheap nihonto as a trial. Given that I can't afford a 5 to 10 year apprenticeship in Japan, that seems to be the only path, and even if I never venture to work on a nihonto, I will have learned a great deal about traditional Japanese steel, polishing, etc., which can only benefit my understanding of nihonto. I'll also meticulously document my journey, which may help someone else down the line. Finding outside the box methods to encourage the development of new generations of polishers is probably necessary if we really care about the preservation of nihonto.

Comparing the mei on this sword and the one in the 2017 post, it's clear they're not by the same person. However, since there were multiple generations, that doesn't necessarily mean that one or both are gimei. More examples would be needed to be sure.

I didn't know that Picasso ever designed tsuba... but that is clearly a cubist tsuba!

From a historical point of view I'd say that blade is of interest, because assuming it is gimei, it was done long enough ago that it was before it was suriage.

Thanks, David. It's a great resource for learning an bit more about tsuba attributions

Based on the photos, I don't see evidence of delamination resulting from corrosion. Forged steel typically does have layers - it's a feature, not a problem, unless the corrosion has progressed to the point where delamination is occurring, which is rare. Truthfully the level of rust on that tsuba looks superficial, and worth stabilizing. A sidebar story on steel: for a period in the 1980's, Nissan was using a recycled steel which had not been properly resmelted on the frames of their trucks. That stuff delaminated at the drop of a hat! The old smiths who made swords, tsubas, etc., were way better at steelwork than 80's Nissan!