chuck

I don't usually "understand" or "get" sukashi tsubas, but this one caught my eye. http://www.nihonto.com.au/html/tsu226_t ... tsuba.html I like the negative space. There's something about it that just keeps the eye moving. It's like you can't look at one part of it for too long. I don't know if there's a word for that or not. peace.

Related question: Have the pattern books or copies of them ever come up for sale? How much would a pattern book go for? Where would I look for one? thanks for your kind encouragement. peace.

Dammit!!! Just when I think I'm getting good at spotting fakes! Yes, I can see it now under close comparison - the bats are positioned slightly differently, and the leaves on the stem are in different places. Apologies to the sellers. The first being kinda rounded-rectangular and the second being mokko shaped should have been an obvious clue as well. Argh. I hang my head in shame. One of these days I will get it. I hope. Thank you for your kind correction. peace. Can this thread be deleted? I think I've just embarrassed myself. Again.

What do you make of THIS?: Same tsuba. Two different sellers. This one I've had my eye on for a while: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT This one just popped up yesterday: http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-sw ... 1e5c97a8ee I like bats. I almost bought the one from the first seller, but I bought the "flowers on ice" tsuba instead. (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7741) I am glad now I didn't buy it. One of the reasons I didn't buy it was because $275 seemed to me to be remarkably cheap for a tsuba in that good a condition. I'm still learning. What's interesting is that you've got one in really good shape, and one that's been made to look beat up, and the better looking one is $25 cheaper!! peace. Post Script I: Anyone have an idea who is cranking these out? I'd actually kinda like to see the wholesalers catalog! Post Script II: Stay off of eBay.

Wow. I wasn't intending to start a whole botanical discussion. The seller said they were peonies, so I just kinda took his word on it... looks more like the white plum blossoms to me based on the pictures. I agree, the story makes more sense with plum/apricot blossoms than with peonies. Just got it in my hands this morning. It is surprisingly heavy for a thin (4mm) plate. Other than the carving, the plate is very smooth, except tilted in the light at certain angles, subtle imperfections are visible on the surface. Almost like you would see on actual ice - it looks smooth at first, but then you can see bubbles and irregularities. Very cool. The patina is a greyish-brown, and the gold stamen in the flowers really "pop" against the patina. Gorgeous. What's really interesting to me is that there are slight oval markings around the nakago-ana which would seem to indicate that the tsuba was at some point, perhaps briefly, mounted on a sword. I can't help but wonder what the menuki and fuchi-kashira were that went with this tsuba. And where they are now. This kind of collecting is dangerous, because now I want to try to track them down and put the sword back together. Thanks for all your kind comments! peace.

Completely blew my budget, but I've been advised that this was an exceptionally good deal. Should be arriving here by noon tomorrow. Can't wait to actually see this in person!! (Unfortunately, since I went so over budget, I won't be replacing my broken digital camera for a while, so unfortunately I won't be taking any picture of my own any time soon.) Theme is fallen peony flowers on cracked ice. Myochin Kisuo forged the plate and Kobayashi Fusao carved the flowers. Late Edo, probably. Papers!!! http://www.nihonto.com/5.7.10.html At first I was attracted to the stark simplicity, almost bleakness, of the design. I'd never seen a tsuba with this motif before and it drew me in right away. I realized that there was a story here. I have no idea if this motif references an actual event or not, but the imagery that ran through my head when I first saw it... (forgive my lack of descriptive ability)... A court-yard garden, the peonies grow by a small pond. It is early spring, but with a late frost, and snow still clings in patches to the ground. The pond is frozen over. Two samurai face each other with swords drawn (rival clans? a woman? some arcane point of honor?) and the blades flash. It is over in an instant. One blade has struck true. The other has clipped three blossoms from the peony. The dying samurai, his blood steaming on the cold ground, rolls onto his belly and tries to rise. Failing, the last thing he sees is the ice cracking under the slight weight of the blossoms, a sign of the coming warmth of spring. I can't believe I got all that just from the seller's pictures. Like I said, I can't wait to actually hold this. I am poorer, but much happier. Thanks. Peace.

How do I get in touch with this collector's club? thanks.

I'm in. Let me know when this gets up and running. peace.

If you've been watching me embarrass myself on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7588 , you'll be happy to know that I've decided to take good advice to heart and explore my non-eBay options. I've been checking out some tsuba internet sites, but I'd also like to find any local dealers, and they seem to be hiding under rocks. It was only be sheer luck that I was able to find the Flying Cranes Gallery in NYC. And seeing antique tsubas in person is a whole different experience than looking at pictures on the internet. I live smack in between NYC and Philly, so if anyone knows of any others in my area, I'd appreciate it if'n you can let me know. Thanks. peace.

Wow. Just. Wow. peace.

Thanks for the info, Ford. I will have to study these pictures more deeply. Someday, comprehension will set in. Now I'm making mistakes in the other direction, taking real tsubas for fakes, which, while an improvement on the other way 'round, is still not ideal. Yes, the bug tsuba looked real to me too, but I couldn't be sure because I was convinced the Umetada tsuba was a fake. If you compare the Umetada auction pics and the "beat-up" pics, the mei is exactly the same. That sent off warning flags in my head. Also, when I start seeing the same design over and over again, I take that as a sign that there may be fakery involved. How weird is that, to see the original of a fake under discussion come up for bid? Although, I am glad to see that there are some real tsuba out there. ...and not everyone has $1000 or even $500 to spend on a tsuba (especially in these times), but they still want something authentic and don't want to get ripped off. If you can't afford what the dealers are offering, where are you going to go? That's why this discussion is proving to be invaluable to me, and, I hope, to others. Being a newbie, I get what you're saying. I also understand, from stories I've read on this forum, that there are experienced collectors that have been fooled by fakes as well, for much more than a couple of hundred dollars. And that there are also unscrupulous dealers who are not on eBay. I'm not advocating for eBay here; obviously its a nest of vipers, BUT if I can reasonably learn to sort the wheat from the chaff with the cheap stuff, I am hoping, when I DO actually have three or four thousand dollars to throw around on a tsuba (Good Lordy! May that day come soon!) it'll be that much harder for me to get fooled by a high-level fake. If a make a $200 mistake now, and I learn from it and understand why it's a mistake, it may help keep me from making a $2000 mistake later. At least that's what I'm telling myself. Much thanks. I am learning a lot here. peace.

Ok, here's what I think: Based on the differences between this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-katana-Ar ... 4aa15c8878 and this: http://cgi.ebay.com/2666-J-P-Samurai-sw ... 4cef946f31 And the differences between this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0524106610 and this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5495&hilit=cast+steel It looks to me like whoever is supplying these is offering a number of different finishes and flourishes depending on the dealer who is buying them. Are your clients in the $100 to $250 price range? Well, here's a more "beat up" looking tsuba. Do you expect your clients to spend $300 to $500+? Well then, here's the same tsuba with some gilding, some inlay, a "shakudo" plug, and a smoother finish. Which means that it's likely that there won't even be two fakes exactly alike. Making it even more difficult for collecters to tell. crap. We all need to keep on our toes, even much more so than I imagined. Anyone run across fake shinsa papers? Those can't be too hard to copy, and it would take this whole mess to yet another level of suck. I'm real curious here. Are we eventually going to need shinsa for the shinsa? peace.

Having figured (like a dummy), hey, I just got a free fake tsuba, I should go and get a real one!, I was about to bid high on this tsuba http://cgi.ebay.com/2634-J-P-sword-Edo- ... fresh=true the seller is the same one from a page ago, the one that was selling the tsuba that Ford said he thought was an actual antique (and has not yet shared his reasons for claiming such!). Ten minutes to go on the auction. To kill time, I'm checking the seller's completed auctions, and I notice this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0524106610 ..and I'm like, hey, I've seen that before. Where? It was here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5495&hilit=cast+steel Compare in two different windows, if you like. It looks like the same basic cast, one with a "low-end" finish, and one with a "high-end" finish. Good Lord!!! Is there no-one to be trusted??? I'm starting to think my ultra-paranoid conspiracy theory may be correct!! Needless to say, I did not place my final bid for the bug tsuba. I don't think it's fake; it looks real to me. But damn, I just can't trust that it's real. Someone else can take that gamble. I will no-longer buy tsuba from eBay again, ever. I'm done, done, done, finished. Gah. Well, this has been quite an education. I thank you all. peace.

Well, they could, but that would require a wide ranging conspiracy involving, at the very least, Japanese historians, several museums, the shinsa organizations, various metalworkers, probably the yakuza and the Japanese government, and possibly space aliens. There are varying levels of fakeness, with some purposefully produced to look "more fake" in order to draw suspicion away from the "less fake" ones. It is unlikely, but anything is possible. peace.

I am very curious as well, Ford. Why do you think this one is real? thanks. peace.

I just heard back from the seller. Apparently he's been deceived as well, and asked me to post this: As this seller has been nothing but up-front and decent with me, I'm willing to take him at his word, and accept that this has all been a mistake, and that he unknowingly bought a collection with some bad pieces. Again, it was never claimed that all his tsuba were copies, just these particular examples. That was due to unclear phrasing on my part. I don't think we've revealed the seller's eMail here, but according to his wishes, I will delete his name from my posts, and ask that any one else who has posted that information do the same. thanks. peace.

Ohhhhh!!! I was unclear here! Apologies! i meant that all the tsubas that were being discussed were copies, not everything that the seller was selling! I am sorry if that was not clear. and it wasn't. my bad. Which is why I took the tsuba to a dealer in New York for a second opinion. I mean, you guys are great and all, but no-one here other than myself actually held it or handled it. I needed independent verification. Of course, the gentleman in New York told me it was a fake for exactly the same reasons indicated here, but I think that carries more weight, since he was actually able to examine it directly. trust, but verify. peace.

Tsuba Update: Last night I sent the seller this message: "Hi! After I ordered this item from you, but before I received it, I was surfing around the internet and chanced upon a Nihonto forum site that happened to be discussing several tsubas that you had up for auction. I was shocked to discover that the consensus among the forum members was that all the tsubas being discussed were fake, that they were modern copies being represented as possibly being antiques. I asked on the forum about the tsuba I had just purchaced. I was told that mine was likely to be a fake as well. Unwilling to believe the word of some random person on the internet who hadn't actually seen and handled the tsuba, I took it today to Flying Cranes Gallery in New York City, who are experts in Japanese antiques. It was confirmed for me to my satisfaction that the tsuba you just sent me is, in fact, a modern copy. I'm not saying this isn't a nice tsuba - it is, in fact, as reproductions go, a very nice one and I do have a use for it in a sword restoration project. So I would like to keep it. However, it troubles me that you attempted to represent this tsuba as an antique, and that you have a number of other items up for bid which also are being represented as antiques which are most likely also modern copies. This complicates the matter of leaving feedback. I want to see what your response is to this before I decide what to post. Please understand, I am not in any way angry or upset. Your service was in every other respects prompt and exemplary. I am, however, disappointed that this tsuba is not an actual antique, and that the wording of your eBay listings seems to me to allow you to sell items that are modern, while implying that they are antiques. I will not post feedback until I read your response, and I can settle this issue in my mind. Thank you for the tsuba. --Chuck-- " This morning I received an apologetic note, and a full refund. "Dear Mr.Charles B. Shupe, Firstly I have to say, I will do my best for your satisfaction because you sounds kind US gentleman with your email. Do you really belive that all my Tsubas are Fake or modern copy? It's so awful rumor damage for me. I can clearly say that all my Tsubas are Antique. I think that If you post bad feedbacks for me, the people who have malice would show their smile, And If my store goes under, they would very laugh with their malices. Can you let me know the URL of the Forum?? I will bring you proofs that my tsubas are antique With Experts Opinion. I have to prove that my Tsubas are not modern copies, also have to banish such rumors. Anyway I will repay all the money soon, and If you are satisfied with our opinions in the future, please make the payment again. Sincerely yours" Then, feeling guilty about keeping the tsuba, I sent back some money via paypal with this note: "Hi again - since I am keeping the tsuba, I would feel guilty about accepting a full refund. Most reproduction tsubas (and, yes, it has been explained to me by an expert to my satisfaction that this tsuba is a reproduction) sell for about $100. So I am sending you this amount, plus $15 for shipping." Ok, now - I don't have a problem sending a link to this thread to this seller, since it is a public forum. However, if anyone here has an objection to this let me know soon. Otherwise tonight I will reply to the seller, and perhaps he will join us here. Thanks. peace.

Ok, just for the sake of discussion: I spotted this auction on eBay. The seller is one whose auctions I generally follow because they usually have what look to me to be higher quality pieces, and their auctions seem to fetch higher prices. This auction is for a tsuba very similar to the one featured in the first post of the thread. There are differences, but it's the same basic design. Is this one real, or a copy, and why? Show your work. I'm learning a lot here. I think this one is real, and I want to see if I am right (and right for the correct reasons), or if I should stay the hell away from these things until I am better educated. here's the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/2666-J-P-Samurai-sw ... 4cef946f31 much thanks. peace.

Figured I'd at least know for sure what I am dealing with, so I took the day off work (I was going to anyway and putter around the house, so no loss) and treked up to the Flying Cranes gallery in NYC. I got an appraisal AND I got to gawk at their amazing selection of actual real authentic and antique tsubas. Sweeeeeet. and the two tsuba that I suspected were fakes.... (drum roll).... are fakes!!! For exactly the reasons pointed out by Ford. Good eye there, Ford. Now that I have some firm confirmation by someone that's actually handled the tsuba in question, I'm going to get in touch with the seller tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. thanks for all your help, folks. peace.

Sorry to derail this discussion of rim-pinging and nibbling and suchlike, but I am in a quandry regarding what do about this tsuba. I've finally got it in hand, and I can see clearly that it is cast. Thanks to you guys, I've had an education in what to look for (not only is this one cast, there's another one in my collection which is also fake. Grrrr...) the problem is - I like the tsuba. Especially now that I know it's a fake, because I have a sword project I'm working on that I can use it for, and I won't feel guilty about using an actual real antique for it. If I had paid $400 or more for it, I'd be feeling angry and ripped off, but for $200... I mean, can you really get an antique tsuba with a real shakudo rim for $200? That should have been a tip-off right there that this was a fake. In terms of reproduction tsubas - Fred Lohman offers his tsubas for about $100, and this one is far superior to a Lohman tsuba - he makes no pretense that his are anything other than modern copies, while this one has to pass as an antique. So it should look better than his. Some of the reproduction tsubas at swordstore.com go as high as $240. (side note: I have a Sword Store iaito. The rim of the tsuba chimes beautifully when pinged. It's not an antique.) SO... to sum up... The item was a fake and not an antique, which is disappointing, but I did get a spiffy reproduction tsuba that I can use. I probably overpaid a bit for it, but I wasn't grossly ripped off. My questions are: Should I try to negotiate with the seller for a partial refund (say, $50 to $100) since the item is not as described? And how to translate all this mess into feedback for the seller? I'm not sure if positive (it is a spiffy tsuba, and was delivered promptly), neutral (it was not as described, but OTOH I didn't get ripped off), or negative (this seller sells fakes!! Run away!! Run away!!) is appropriate here. What to do? peace. (EDIT: postscript) I just tried the "ping" test with the new tsuba and the other one I suspect may be a fake, and both passed. They Ping. No Thud. So either I am wrong about them, or the fakers are on to youse guys and are casting pingable tsubas.

How would I tell if it is cast or not? What should I look for when I receive it? peace.

ARGHH!! I just bought a tsuba from this seller!! It's this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT i bought it because it looked like a unique piece; I had never seen this spiral theme before and figured that there was no way it could be fake. Gah. Now I'm just upset. How would I prove to the seller that it is a fake and I want to send it back?? This could be a big hassle. peace.

I for one would like to see the fuchi / kashira and menuki that go along with this... pax.

Ok, been away for awhile. Thanks for all the info! Question on shows - it's pretty much impossible for me to get out to San Francisco. Do they ever have shows in NYC or Philly? These are the two closest major cities to where I am. I saw a piece on eBay that exemplifies the heavily hammered style I'm talking about, and I managed to pick it up fairly cheaply. I just really love the texture and weight of this tsuba! It was cheap as far as tsuba go; so I'm pretty sure it's nothing particularily special, but I do like it alot. If anyone can tell me anything about it, I'd appreciate it. And here's the "Dragon in Sand" tsuba I mentioned before. It's over 5 mm thick. Big and heavy. Again, all comments are appreciated. Thanks!! peace.