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But then there's the question whether we're talking about: -a long and short sword made by the same smith, collected at a later time. -a long and short sword made as a pair by a smith to be worn together. -a long and a short sword used by a samurai for which he had matching koshirae made. -a long and a short sword for which some collector at some point made matching koshirae.

Be honest now: how many of you are dreaming of the day an unsuspecting burglar breaks into your home?

If I do the translation to euros (1M yen = 6200 euros), then plenty of local dealers ask more than that for hozon or unpapered blades. But perhaps they don't count for your question because they cannot easily be submitted for shinsa here? https://kyodaiorigin...shi-in-the-year1973/ https://kyodaiorigin...74-with-nbthk-hozen/ https://www.samurai-...hi-nbthk-hozon-token

Thanks for your replies and advice! I think it's a very interesting blade, and I will check out the references. It just baffles the mind how there are many smiths over centuries using the same name. Imagine the chaos if there were 10 Vincent van Goghs of varying skills active between 1750 and 1920 signing their paintings in the same way.

Hello all, I came across this blade at samurashokai.jp, and it seems very interesting; But I am a rookie and a little bit scared of all the possible problems with forgeries, questionable inscriptions etc. https://www.samurais....jp/sword/25103.html It is signed bishu osafune norimitsu, and dated to 1470. But since there are (apparently) a lot of smiths that signed osafune norimitsu, I can't really find many other examples to compare the mei. Bishu Osafune Norimitsu is mentioned here as a famous smith; https://nihonto.com/...f-the-muromachi-era/ But the hozon certificate and the asking price do not seem to support that this is indeed a blade by a very famous smith. So my lazy question is: Would you trust this blade and mei to be genuine (or rather trust the NBTHK papers)? And a less lazy question; how would you go about finding works by the same osafune norimitsu to do the comparison myself?

While we are on the topic; what do you guys make of this sword for sale from tokyo nihonto: https://tokyo-nihont...a-73-3cm-kizami-saya I never saw such a clear pattern before, but the sword is unpapered; is this acid polishing?

I find this comment a bit dissapointing. While there are indeed hundreds of items per week on catawiki, there are very very few with any certification at all, let alone NBTHK TH certificates. And when certified swords are there, they are recycled every week or so. This is also reflected in the prices, most items are unpapered and somewhere between 500-3000 euros at most. There I completely agree that it's up to the buyer to study the pictures and decide for themselves. In the worst case scenario the buyer paid 1-2 K too much. BUT when talking about items that are prices in the 10's of thousands of euros, I honestly expected some more accountability. Especially if it's as obvious as a missing stamp on the paper.

Otherwise they get cranky.

This one was too funny to keep from you:

Sometimes I see swords listed with seemingly way too long koshirae; for example: I am not sure how to interpret this. I read stories about mismatching koshirae to confuse the opponent; but surely pulling out a tiny sword from a large sheath is a positive surprise? Or is this usually because sellers cobble together mismatching swords and fittings? Or are they koshirae that predate suriage?

How would they get it out of the UK? Surely there's a huge risk of getting in trouble at the airport...

That's got to be GPT3 then GPT4 is much more recent; and since he put the full convo in there I can just recreate it with GPT4; it's not very concise though. Did Japan produce cast-iron ingots for commercial trade during the Edo period? Japan did not widely produce cast-iron ingots for commercial trade during the Edo period (1603–1868). The Edo period, under the Tokugawa shogunate, was marked by a policy of sakoku (national isolation), which limited foreign trade and interaction. Japan did have a robust ironworking tradition during this time, but the production and trade of cast iron were primarily for domestic use, not for large-scale export. Here’s a more detailed look at the situation during the Edo period: Domestic Iron Production: Iron Production Techniques: The Japanese iron industry was based on traditional methods like tatara, a smelting process that involved producing steel (including tamahagane) from iron sand (satetsu). This method was labor-intensive and produced relatively small quantities of high-quality steel, primarily used for tools, weapons (e.g., nihonto), and agricultural implements. Cast iron, in contrast, is more brittle and less suitable for items like swords. Domestic Use of Cast Iron: Although Japan produced cast iron in small amounts, it was used mostly for specific items like pots, pans, kettles (e.g., tetsubin), and some larger construction or engineering components. Cast iron wasn’t considered a premium material, so its application was limited compared to wrought iron and steel, which were more highly valued for their durability and workability. Commercial Trade and Sakoku Policy: Limited Trade: Under the sakoku policy, Japan only traded with a few nations, primarily China, Korea, and the Netherlands (through the Dutch East India Company in Nagasaki). The scope of this trade was tightly controlled, and there is no significant evidence of large-scale exports of cast-iron ingots during this period. The iron trade primarily focused on domestic demand rather than export markets. Iron Imports: Japan actually imported iron ore and other raw materials during the Edo period, primarily from China and Korea, to supplement its own iron resources. This further indicates that the country was not in a position to produce surplus cast-iron ingots for export. Why No Large-Scale Cast-Iron Export? Economic Priorities: The Tokugawa shogunate prioritized self-sufficiency and maintaining domestic production to support agricultural and artisan communities. Iron production was focused on fulfilling internal needs, especially for farming tools and construction materials, rather than generating export surpluses. Technical Limitations: Japan's tatara smelting technique, while excellent for producing steel, was not geared toward mass-producing cast iron in ingot form for trade. Other nations, particularly in Europe and China, had developed larger-scale iron foundries that could mass-produce cast iron more efficiently. In summary, Japan’s production of cast iron during the Edo period was limited to meeting domestic needs, and it was not a major player in the international cast-iron trade during this time. Provide references for these statements: During the Edo period (1603-1868), Japan was known for its production and trade of various iron products, including cast iron. While Japan is not particularly rich in natural iron resources, it developed a significant iron industry, especially in regions like Mimasaka, Bizen, and Bitchū, where iron was refined and made into products like tools, swords, and other artifacts. Some sources mention that iron was cast into ingots and traded domestically, though Japan's primary focus was on the refinement of iron sands into steel for the production of swords and armory( Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare)(Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare). Commercial export of iron was limited, primarily because Japan's isolationist policy (Sakoku) restricted foreign trade to a few select ports. However, Japanese merchants did engage in limited foreign trade, particularly with the Dutch and Chinese, who exchanged iron and copper. Japanese cast iron foundries, particularly in regions like Oshu, specialized in producing high-quality iron products for both domestic use and trade(Boonie Hicks)(Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare). Provide references about the production of cast-iron ingots in Japan during the Edo period The production of cast-iron ingots in Japan during the Edo period (1603–1868) was not a major commercial focus. Japan primarily produced iron for domestic consumption, with iron sand (satetsu) refined into higher-quality steel for tools, weapons, and other local uses. Regions like Mimasaka, Bizen, and Bitchū were known for iron production, though large-scale ingot production for international trade was uncommon due to the country’s isolationist policy (sakoku)( Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare)(Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare). Iron was smelted using traditional techniques like tatara smelting, which primarily aimed at producing high-quality steel (like tamahagane) rather than mass production of cast iron. The limited cast-iron products, such as kettles and other domestic wares, were largely for local use. Even though some cast iron was produced, it wasn't part of large-scale commercial trade, especially since Japan imported iron ore from China and Korea to supplement its own supplies(Boonie Hicks). For further insight into traditional Japanese iron production, including casting, the regional foundries like those in Oshu are still known for their historical contributions to the production of high-quality cast iron(Boonie Hicks)(Gunbai: Ancient Japanese Warfare).

Which version of chatGPT did they use? For medical challenges as well, GPT3 was hallucinating up all kinds of fake references, but GPT4 has gotten a lot better in that regard. But we also have similar worries about whether the model recognises outdated or fraudulent publications as false. One option that seems to help a bit (I cannot check if this works for nihonto since I don't have the required books) is to input the books you trust in the model, and to let it answer questions based on those inputs.

Alright, I'm sure this wil anger a lot of people, but we have to talk about chatGPT, as it is getting to a point where it may be useful. I am currently at a pathology conference, and the ability of chatGPT(v4) to recognise highly specialized medical images is getting very good. Everyone is very hesitant to actually use it of course, but very often it is on par with what a skilled pathologist would say about some histology slides. So obviously I was curious how it would do on some nihonto related challenges. I went ahead and copied a partial description of Aoi into the chatGPT prompt excluding the era, and then asked it for the era. This was the answer: Based on the detailed description of the sword, several clues suggest the time period it could belong to: Blade Length and Curvature (Sori): A blade length of 73.8 cm with a curvature of 1.8 cm is typical of katana swords from the Edo period (1603–1868). During this period, katana lengths averaged around 70–80 cm, and the curvature was relatively shallow compared to earlier periods, like the Kamakura or Muromachi. Number of Mekugi Holes: Three mekugi holes are relatively uncommon, but it's possible this blade has been remounted multiple times, which might suggest it was used over a long period or refitted during the Edo period, when swords were often reused and maintained. Width at Base and Tip (Motohaba and Sakihaba): The blade's width at the base and tip seems consistent with those of later periods when swords were made more for practical use (e.g., Edo period and onward), rather than for the battlefield, where earlier swords were heavier and broader. Jigane (Hada): The presence of clear itame hada (wood-grain pattern) can be found across many periods, but its clarity suggests a well-forged blade, which was a hallmark of higher craftsmanship during the late Muromachi (1336–1573) or early Edo periods. Hamon: The described Gunome-midare hamon with deep nioikuchi and Ko-niedeki features are also found in swords from the Edo period. The midarekomi boshi style (where the hamon pattern continues into the tip) became more common in the Edo period. Given these features, this sword likely originates from the early to mid-Edo period (17th century). During this time, swords were crafted more for personal defense and status, with less emphasis on heavy, large battlefield weapons and more on elegant, practical designs. Very curious to hear from the experts whether this is all a complete hallucination, or whether it actually makes sense. Aoi art states this example is from the muromachi period btw. Secondly, it can do image analysis as well now; I gave it only the picture of this sword (https://www.aoijapan.com/katana：bizen-koku-osafune-sukesada-sakunbthk-hozon-token/) And it did a very detailed description; but wrong on several points: From the image, I can make some observations about the sword's structure and key features: Blade Shape and Curvature (Sori): The blade appears to have a gentle curvature, typical of many Japanese swords from the Edo period. This curvature often reflects a design more oriented for personal defense rather than the more pronounced curves of earlier tachi blades used in mounted combat. Hamon Pattern: The hamon, or temper line, appears to be midare (irregular wave-like pattern), potentially gunome-midare, as it shows undulating peaks. This style of hamon became quite popular in the Edo period and is a hallmark of high-quality swordsmithing, where differential heat treatment creates these distinct patterns along the cutting edge. Nakago (Tang): The tang has two mekugi-ana (peg holes), which can indicate the age and re-mounting history of the sword. Multiple holes often mean the sword has been re-mounted in different handles or styles over time. The presence of a signature (mei) on the tang is a valuable clue, as it typically contains the name of the swordsmith and possibly the location or date of forging. Kissaki (Tip): The tip of the sword looks well-defined with a noticeable boshi (the hamon continues onto the tip). This feature, depending on its shape and continuation of the hamon, is crucial for identifying the sword school or period. Sugata (Overall Shape): The blade appears to have a standard shape typical of katana rather than tachi, with a balanced curve and medium-length tip. This style is also indicative of Edo period katana, used for practical wear rather than the longer and more curved blades used in earlier warfare. All in all, I think it's quite interesting that it has apparently been trained on nihonto specific text, and is to some extent able to recognise details, although right now not very accurately it seems. Perhaps this can be useful for some of us; possibly also for translation tasks.

My choice would be to pay first and then file an objection afterwards. The longer it's in their hands, the higher the chance of them losing it or sending it back.