George KN

I'm not a nihonto expert, but I work with AI language and image models regularly as part of my job and hobbies, and there's a lot of misinformation about what AI can and can't do... Language models do not know things. They simply create text that reads like the most likely answer based on the previous context it has access too. This means it is very good at creating things that sound right, but not things that are accurate, or would disagree with its previous context. Yes, you could create a more accurate model using only reputable sources (e.g. adding only Sesko's and others work, giving it none of the mess that is online sources (this would be stealing without permission though)). But it has no ability to reason or solve conflicts of information - it would simply try to create what best fitted the theme of the works previously provided, leading to decent accuracy but regular terrible mistakes that even a beginner would catch. This isn't to say that AI can't be used in the field of Nihonto though - I actually have high hopes with enough images and sources image models would be very useful at matching signatures against indexed swordsmiths. Similarly, the initial terribly inaccurate assessment can be used to speed up writing a human analysis or text, as it at least provides a starting point, however wrong. In general AI like most tech tools thrive on very specific datasets and tasks - general use (like trying to analyze all things about a sword), not so much.

Thank you BaZZa! It's definitely not the news I wanted to hear, but an amateur polish would explain a lot. I knew the boshi had been messed about with, but hadn't realised they polished the whole blade This must have been done a bit ago though, because there's evidence of surface rust, small rust pits, and then the meteor strikes caused from uchiko meeting those rust pits. And you are right about the niku too - I think there might be a small amount left, but it's definitely hard to see and feel. I wonder if a polisher could raise the shinogi-ji to help with this... As for whether it is financially sensible to do a polish, it is a mumei blade unfortunately. I've put pictures up in previous threads about other questions (I was just trying to understand the hada in this one), but I'll attach some of them again:

Hi all, I've been lightly using some uchiko on my out of polish Shinto mumei katana in an attempt to be able to see any hada, and spending more time with the blade has opened my eyes to many of its features I had previously not noticed. For one, it turned out I wasn't the first to use uchiko on it - there are actually quite a few meteor strikes from the distant past I've only just noticed. I've also finally worked out what was causing the strange marks on only one side of the habaki - the lines are caused by a paper wedge in the saya also added by a previous owner: It was actually a really nice feeling to realise that many hands have handled and cared for the blade, even if its not in the best of polish at the moment. Makes you think of the history and the caretakers that came before you know? Anyway, I have also attempted to take better photos, and noticed some interesting structures in the steel along the way. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to explain them/give me at least a name so I can do further research. 1. Firstly, there's a bit of darker steel running along the shinogi, but seemingly only on one side of the blade. There's a few smaller blobs towards the tsuba, but one patch where it is very noticeable: Does anyone know what this is/what it is called? 2. There are also these darker patches in a few places. I don't think they are fukure, as they are quite large and oddly shaped, but open to suggestions? (I've heard of jifu before, is this it?) 3. Although there are plenty of scratches that get in the way, I feel like I should be able to see any wood-grain like hada in these images. Does that indicate this is muji hada or nashiji-hada? (I am still very much learning about hada) 4. What are these diagonal white streaks in various parts of the steel? They don't seem to be scratches, and all seem to be in the same direction. Hopefully the photos are ok! Thanks for your time, George

Umm, in the books vs swords first debate, can I just say it's actually quite hard as a beginner on a budget to feel justified in buying a small library of expensive books and it is also equally (if not harder) to find places that would let you see quality in-polish nihonto, let alone handle them? Yes I understand the value of both now, and have access to the right knowledge through here and my local Token society, but starting out it's a big ask. To be honest I think one of the best free recommendations I'd give is reading through two or three years worth of the threads here and in the military swords section - I learnt a metric tonnes of things just by observing other people's beginner and advanced questions, and it cost me absolutely nothing

As a beginner/novice myself (1 year in though) I'm interested in some more recommendations too - I'm still very much looking for a book to help me with signatures, but I do have some others I can recommend depending on your fields of interest. I'll definitely second Markus Sesko as a great author on the topic as I have a few of his books already (you can buy some of them from Amazon, at least in the UK). Unfortunately I'm still looking around for more affordable versions of the rest of his works. So far I've got Koto-Kantei, Shinto & Shinshinto Kantei, the Kantei Reference Book, & the Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords (Paperback). All in all about ~£170 ish (which is a lot of money to me, but they are genuinely useful and with great pictures). https://markussesko.com/books/ The only other relevant books I've got so far that are in English and I could afford are: Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945 by Richard Fuller and Ron Gregory Great reference guide for WW2 swords, but not for Nihonto - ~£65 (seems to be more expensive now, but I bought mine on Amazon) Armours of the Samurai - Berlin Samurai Museum Focuses solely on katchu, but good pictures! ~£22 (I bought in person at the museum) https://samuraimuseu...mours-of-the-samurai Samurai Museum Berlin - Berlin Samurai Museum Again, not so great for swords, but interesting nonetheless ~£22 (I bought in person at the museum) https://samuraimuseu...amurai-museum-berlin The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing Not super useful outside of understanding polishing more - ~£28 https://www.amazon.c...p/product/1568365187 The Art of Tsukamaki Almost a how-to-guide to wrapping tsuka, and also has a bunch of other randomly useful beginner info in - ~£20 https://www.amazon.c...p/product/0984377956 Selected Fine Japanese Sword from European NBTHK Collections This is a very good deep dive into some specific swords, with good pictures and in both English and German. I actually also bought this at the Berlin Samurai museum, and while expensive, I think it is a good read (but not particularly useful for references). ~£120 ~~~ Other than that, there's the FAQ of this forum here with some recommendations: https://www.nihontom...geboard.com/faq.html Beginner books: -The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords By Kokan Nagayama and translated by Kenji Mishina -The Japanese Sword: A Comprehensive Guide By Kanzan Sato and translated by Joe Earle. -The Samurai Sword By John Yumoto -The Craft of the Japanese Sword By Kapp & Yoshihara -The Art of the Japanese Sword: The Craft of Swordmaking and its Appreciation By Kapp & Yoshihara -The Arts of the Japanese Sword By B.W. Robinson -The Japanese Sword : The Soul of the Samurai By Gregory Irvine -Nihon-To art swords of Japan By W.A.Compton, Homma Junji, Sato Kanichi and Ogawa Morihiro -Samurai, The weapons and spirit of the Japanese warrior By Clive Sinclaire -Japanese swords and sword furniture in the museum of fine arts Boston By Ogawa Morihiro -Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords: A Collector's Guide by Nobuo Nakahara -Encyclopedia of Japanese swords By Markus Sesko Intermediate and up: -Nihon Toko Jiten (two volumes) By Matsuo Fujishiro, Translated by AFU -Nihon-To Koza (6 volumes) By Souemon/Kiyoshige, Translated by Harry Watson - AFU -Japanese Swords and Sword Furniture in the Museum of Fine Arts Boston By Morihiro Ogawa -One Hundred Masterpieces from the Collection of Dr. Walter A. Compton: Japanese Swords, Sword Fittings, and Other - Christies -Japanese Swords and Sword Fittings from the Collection of Dr. Walter A. Compton -Japanese Swordsmiths By Hawley -Nihonto Newsletter Vol 1,2,3 By Albert Yamanaka -Yasukuni-to Tradition and Ideal Beauty By Tom Kishida -The School of Hizen Tadayoshi By Roger Robertshaw -Mino-To By Malcolm Cox -Cutting Edge: Japanese Swords In The British Museum By Victor Harris -Sword and Same' By Henri Joly -Swordsmiths of Japan By Markus Sesko And then there's also the downloads section for smaller articles which may also be of interest: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/files/

Just to clarify my previous comment - the wear is just so even! There just doesn't seem to be any marks from people taking it out of koshirae like there are on my blades. Here's some pics for comparison - I think you'll see what I mean (note the shinier steel on the edges): I wonder if this could all be explained by it having been in an old shirasaya for a very long time, building up the even patina without any wear, and then it had a newer polish that removed most of the transition between the patina and polished steel?

I agree the patina is a bit strange (especially the transition from blade to tang) - I wonder if a gimei signature has been filed off, or the nakago cleaned, and then someone felt it would look better with the even colouration instead? I very much like the hamon though, and I can see why you would buy it!

Thanks for the extra pics! I'm even happier now that it is genuine - but someone has given this sword quite a beating. 110% - I've tried cleaning some things myself (never a sword though!) and paid the price for it later. With the chips and quantity of rust this would need to go to a professional that specializes in nihonto for a full polish. This is expensive, but may be worth it depending on the quality of the blade (others may be able to comment on this more than I can). Also just to add another link to the pile, I've always found the Japanese Sword Index site very useful: https://japaneseswordindex.com/care.htm

To me this looks like a genuine nihonto in genuine fittings. It also looks like under that surface rust you'd have a really nice hamon. Sadly I can't comment on the authenticity of the signature since I'm still learning about that side of things myself, but I can't see anything here that worries me about the age and manufacturing of the sword. Of course better and more pictures are always welcome (such as what the blade looks like without its habaki, and at the very tip and very end), but if I saw this in an online auction with the current pictures, I'd definitely be bidding Since this is your first post (welcome to the forum), I don't know how much you know about nihonto, but please don't try cleaning the rust off the blade yourself, and never clean the tang - you would destroy any value the sword has.

Thanks for sharing! We definitely need more videos like this

Sorry, I have to agree with Sam and Chris... The tang is of particular concern - I wonder how it is actually attached to the rest of the sword under the habaki? It doesn't look like there is a shinogi line that continues to the very end, and is very uneven.

Hi Dan, welcome to the forum! Nice find if it is from the UK? Blades are getting harder to import here, so the more the better. Just a bit of a disclaimer though, I'm a novice collector, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt. That being said, is that a broken kissaki (sword tip) I see? That will affect unfortunately affect the value - hopefully it hasn't gone through the hamon (which would be considered a fatal flaw https://www.Japanese...rdindex.com/kizu.htm). Also what length is the nagasa (sharp bit of the blade measured from the back)? If it is shorter than ~60cm it would be considered a wakizashi and therefore worth a bit less. https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/measure.htm As others have already said, more and better quality pictures are definitely needed, but generally I like the tsuka, saya, and form of the blade, it seems initially like a nice package but in bad shape. I can't tell you its actual worth though, and generally people shy away from valuing swords here (although admittedly this makes starting out and insuring things rather difficult). However as a VERY rough guide I will say I've seen few genuine katana (if it is one) in fittings go for less than ~£600 at UK auctions this year (the bottom bar for wakizashi is about half that - I am including auctions buyer fees in this too). It could be much more though if the signature is real and the sword fully restored, but currently the damaged kissaki and rust will affect its collectability considerably, so a professional polish and shinsa may be required to ascertain its full value. Unfortunately such work is expensive (£1500+), and the final value of the sword could be less than this, so may not be worth it (expert in-person advice is likely needed prior to this). It is also not currently possible from the images to tell if there are any other obvious flaws (fatal or otherwise) that are present in the sword. I don't know how much you know about nihonto, but please don't try cleaning the sword tang, or polishing/rust removing from the sword it in any way! It will destroy any value it potentially has.

I would love to have it properly polished, especially after someone has abused it so badly. I have got the impression though that it normally isn't financially sensible to do so if mumei, a wakizashi, or possibly a later piece like shinto? (Since all three generally command lower prices than a signed koto katana etc)

@Spartancrest It could be instructions, it is just strange the same characters are carved into both seppa: Also @Lewis B - I was thinking the same. I really wasn't expecting to find the different patterns as the auction photos didn't show any detail at all, so it was a pleasant surprise. Shame it isn't signed after someone went to all that effort!

Now that the wakizashi has arrived, I've actually been able to look at the fittings myself, and have two new questions if nobody minds (not that you can stop me from asking, bwahaha (except Brian, Brian could stop me, but please don't, I need the answers )). 1. Any ideas on what school this tsuba is or know any similar examples? It suspect it would have looked great when all the gold and silver was intact. 2. Why are both the seppa signed but no other fitting on the whole mumei sword? Is it by the maker of just the seppa? (The seppa are showing the same side in both images, I'm just not 100% sure which way up is right in this instance)

Thanks for the thoughts and link to the old thread - I've just done some measuring of my own for comparison: Total: 51cm Nagasa: 38cm Nakago: 13cm Sori: 8mm Motohaba (width of blade at the machi): 31mm Motokasane (thickness of blade at the machi): 6.9mm Width about 3/4 of its length (can't measure sakikasane and sakihaba without a yokote?): 29.5mm It definitely seems very similar! I'm glad to learn the term Hira-Zukuri. I've also tried taking more pictures of the kissaki/boshi, but it's really hard - some muppet really has scratched it up badly: These are the best two shots i've got so far: Still not sure about that return - if anything I'm more worried about it running off the edge :S Also yes! I think you can see why I bid on it... Except this wakiashi has a dragon theme instead of birds. If it is ubu, this would be my third nihonto out of five bought at auction that are both ubu and mumei.

@Lewis B - no information from the auction unfortunately (as usual lol) - I can't really make out the boshi, but the large amount of scratching in that area really isn't helping, so it is hard to tell if one turns back properly there. Edit: I've done some quick research into naginata naoshi, and yes, that would definitely explain the lack of pointiness and the general geometry! The one thing I've noticed in the examples I've come across is that they all seem to have a shinogi/shinogi ji, but mine doesn't?

Also, here it is next to one of its new housemates. I think it helps illustrate quite how wide it is (this can't be normal for a purpose made wakizashi right?):

It took its time to get to me from Northern Ireland, but the Wakizashi I bought some weeks back has finally arrived. And boy do I have some questions! First some observations: Perhaps most importantly, it is mumei. The nakago is very smooth so I suspect it is actually suriage and originally a much larger blade. The file marks also look a bit different from what I've seen before. It has clearly been heavily abused recently (scratches everywhere, and what looks like amateur polishing on the edge). Unfortunately because of the scratches it is really hard to make out what's happening with the hamon in the kissaki, however I don't think the hamon runs off here (although it may be close) It has no shinogi. It has no yokote. It seems to have a thick kasane, especially for its size. It is very wide for its size, wider than my other katana in fact! Its kissaki isn't very pointy. I suspect the tip has been broken off, but even if that has happened, the overall shape seems unusual to me - it doesn't seem to get gradually narrower like my other nihonto do. In fact, with its shape, width, and weight it feels a lot like a machete when in hand... Next some pictures: See what I mean about the nakago being smooth/shiny as if part of a larger blade: Hopefully this shows quite how thick this: Pics of the hamon (attempted anyway): So does anyone know what I've bought? I'm struggling to imagine it having been a larger katana without a shinogi/shinogi ji or with its geometry/thickness. Is it possibly a shortened polearm? (I know little about them). As always, all opinions welcome (I'm still trying to learn as much as I can)! Many thanks, George

Identifying the age of a blade can be a tricky subject, and something I'm still learning about too. I've only been collecting for a year, and got fairly decent at spotting fakes, but not much else, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt! That being said, for dating purposes signatures can mostly be ignored, as even in genuine blades, gimei (fake/homage) signatures are a major issue (yours definitely seems highly suspect - it's not only really big, but also carved rather poorly). Instead one of the major things collectors rely on to give a general date to a sword is the patina on the nakago (tang). That's why it is so important to never clean it. There are structures and patterns caused by centuries of rust that just can't be replicated, like heavy pitting. There is some evidence of this on your example further down the tang: The file marks, ana, and wear marks from the tsuka (handle) being removed are also worth looking at, and I can't see any red flags in your examples in this regard (although better pictures would be good). The general brown/rusty patina can and is able to be replicated in fake swords, but I've never seen fakes pull off proper pitting and rust structures yet. For reference, here's three of my nakago. The first is from a Shinto era sword (1597-1780), with nice even patina: And then here's a wakizashi likely from the late Koto period (pre 1596), but has been partly cleaned (likely to search for a signature). Even though it is cleaned, the structures in the steel show it has been oxidizing for a long time previously, suggesting its real age: And here's a gendaito nakago made during WW2, only 80 years ago. A bit more active rust (brown), but a lot less patina (dark brown/black), and none of the rust structures shown above: It is worth noting that lighting makes a huge difference with these pictures though - and why it is so hard to give a definitive answer for your example. Here's all three together and it's quite a bit harder to tell the details: Other than the patina on the nakago, experts (such as many of the other members of this forum!) are able to tell the age of a sword (or at least whether shinshinto/shinto/koto) from its sori (curvature), hada, hamon style, and the shape of various parts. Other clues such as certain kizu (flaws in the steel), and the blade being suriage (shortened) would also suggest a blades age. Here's some links from the Japanese Sword Index I've found very useful whilst learning: Japanese HISTORICAL AND SWORD ERAS SWORD BLADE MEASUREMENT Japanese SWORD FLAWS That site is honestly great for learning the basics - but so is reading through all the old posts on this forum. Just a further clarification though - although I've said some of the patina on the nakago in your example seems ok, I'm still 50/50 about the sword being genuine

I would stay away from this one at that kind of price to be honest. Ignoring the signature (which I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on), even if the blade is genuine (50/50 chance from those pictures imo), it's not in a good state of polish, and the fittings are also not great. Adding on to what others have said about the tsuba seeming to be stamped - you can tell because it almost looks the whole thing has been shifted to one side, with the rim being thicker on one side and thinner on the other side: Another mild warning sign is that the seller has allowed the blade to be directly put onto a wooden table, without a cloth or cushion. To me that suggests they either don't know anything about what they have, or conversely, know exactly what they have and it isn't worth treating with respect... On the bright side you 100% can buy a real nihonto if your budget is $1000 (or even better if Euros/Pounds). Either a rather rough katana, or a half decent wakizashi. They are out there, and this forum is a great place to check things before you buy (as you've already done!)

Thank you so much for the recommendation about the Berlin museum - I wasn't aware of it before this thread which I read weeks ago, but because of it was able to arrange a visit, and it's definitely worth seeing. The gift shop even sold some relevant books I picked up (not cheap though, but to be expected)

I was actually in the Berlin museum today - it's really good! The multi-lingual displays were a life saver. Never been to Japan yet (but I very much hope to at some point), but this sort of thing would definitely be amazing if possible (it would be nice if they went into more about schools and styles though):

Hey again Dan, I really do like those tsuba! Thanks for sharing

Including thieves, bandits, and pirates? 🏴‍☠️ (No, I will not stop romanticising my swords )