George KN

Alternative learning process- buy the cheapest rust free blade you can find with a hamon that you like, at the dodgiest auction you can find with no seller information, and then try and find out everything you can from it (Measurements/Flaws/Mei/School). So long as it isn't fake (feel free to ask here before purchase!), I've found it a great way to learn whilst remaining motivated. Even a completely worn nihonto has resale value, and it's good to learn sword care and handling well before risking it all on a single high value one.

Hi Bruno, I like the design! It's definitely been mounted, and looks to have some real age to it (the way the rust is peeling on the inside of the nakago ana heavily suggests this). If it is a real hand-forged piece though (I can't see any seams which is good), I still think someone may have messed around with it. There's clear evidence of rust and pitting all over, but it all looks the same colour as the surface: Similarly, the copper in the nakago ana is glossy? I've never seen this before. It feels like someone may have applied a layer or two of something. One to darken any rust spots (but not actually remove the flaking rust like they should have), and a second to make it look so shiny? (Black shoe polish perhaps?) I think combined, extra layers like this would reduce the level of detail we can see (especially in the mei), giving a similar impression to it being cast. At 30 euro's though I'd say you did really well! (FYI I am a tsuba novice - but I have worked on some removing heavy rust before)

Wow, I really like that design! So simple yet so sombre. The rivets do strongly suggest it represents metalwork rather than anything else, but I find it particularly interesting that each corner overlaps the next one - reminiscent of it being endless? It definitely could be a direct representation of a strong box/cage/prison. But part of me thinks it could be more nuanced - a representation of endless mental restraint, or constraint against something.

I've been mulling over the dots... It doesn't seem like something you'd do for fittings, especially since the paint and numbers are used for that on gunto instead. It feels like something only someone actively working with the steel would add, like the polisher or the smith themselves. Perhaps it's a reference to how many times the nakago has been adjusted? (Interesting your example has two ana) Or just a way the smith or polisher was tracking blades made at the same time? (This would help explain the fairly low number of dots on blades I've seen) Not sure about the Koto one though! If that was off a suriage blade where the mune was moved it would indeed heavily suggest something a polisher added rather than the original smith... Maybe even a mei of sorts with that pattern of five.

Hi all, I recently bought a 1943 kai gunto from an auction that is missing it's ashi/hangers on the saya. I know it used to have two, and that they were the kind that had screws, as the holes are still there in the saya: Rather foolishly, I bought a pair of ashi from ebay before the sword arrived, but they are the type without the screws: They are great, but just the wrong type (and a little too gold for my rather beaten-up saya) - so if anyone wants to trade one set of ashi for another, please let me know! Otherwise, happy to buy them separately if you happen to have a pair with screw holes in the right place. Thanks, George

So... I was cleaning the tsuka of this kai gunto today, trying to get rid of some of the mould. To do so I needed to remove the knot loop and the kabuto-gane (I've done this before with the shin gunto and the removal process was just the same). However underneath it was a bit of paper. I initially assumed it was just to help with the fit - but out of curiosity I took it out and unfolded it, and it does have some writing on... There wasn't any other writing on the other sides. Is it just a scrap piece of paper do you think, or something else? For now I've just stuck it back where I found it. Thanks again, George

In all seriousness, this is getting a bit out of hand. Although there are the age and tradition defences, I don't know how I could actually prove to a police officer my mumei shinto and koto blades were made when I say they are if they ever decided to seize them, nor how to prove in writing they are "traditionally" made. I do wonder whether long term setting up our collections as online museums might be possible to help skirt around these rules... Might even have tax benefits? Not sure what sort of paperwork would be involved though.

Thanks Bruce Unlike that time I bought a gunto without seeing a tang and it turning out to be an Emura, this one is much less of a home run, but I'm learning a lot all the same. If anyone has a pair of kai gunto ashi that have holes for screws they're willing to sell or trade for ones without a hole, please pm me! (I will make an ad in the wanted section for this too)

I believe it is the large Seki stamp - it is 5mm tall by 4mm wide. Apart from the painted sub assembly number, the only other marking is that single dot at the bottom of the nakago. Thanks for confirming the sub assembly number, it definitely matches all the other roman numerals on the fittings then! I've uploaded more pics of the blade and fittings on the original military thread here if you're interested and haven't seen it already: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51690-how-to-valuerank-showato This is really interesting thanks! There are two other gunto Masayuki I didn't mention in Sesko, but he lists them using different characters to mine: MASAYUKI (正之), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Saitama – “Masayuki” (正之), family name Ōzawa (小澤), he worked as guntō smith, ryōkō no retsu (Akihide) MASAYUKI (正幸), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Aichi – “Masayuki” (正幸), family name Ōzawa (小沢), he worked as guntō smith, ryōkō no retsu (Akihide) And there are also two other recent threads I've found with Masayuki guntos: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/50546-translation-mei-tang-help-wanted/ https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/41159-new-sword-please-look/ Unsure if that's at all helpful, but there does seem to be quite a few of them floating around!

Apart from the missing ashi (which will be a pain to replace since they are the kind that need screws), the other two big issues with it is the saya skin is splitting along its entire length (hopefully this may be fixable?): And that the blade is very out of polish: Thankfully it's all surface rust as far as I can tell, but it is a pain the auction wasn't able to show this all in more detail *before* I bought the darned thing. Now I know why it was so cheap for a kai gunto! I think I may have instead ended up with a battered showato in battered fittings instead of listening to this sound advice Oh well - hopefully I'll be able to at least stabilise the rust with oil and uchiko. On the bright side, it is nice to finally be able to hold and study a kai gunto, as well as a showato for the first time

Ok, I'm home now, and finally been able to take a proper look at the kai gunto. No hagire I think, but it's definitely out of polish... Jan was kind enough to provide me with the translations for the mei here: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51770-kai-gunto-mei 濃州関住正行作 = Nōshū Seki-jū Masayuki saku 昭和十八年 = Shōwa 18 (1943 CE) Although missing it's ashi and mekugi peg, all the other fittings have the same 1,1,5,3 numbers, which leads me to believe these are also the numbers painted in brown on the nakago (please correct me if I'm wrong though): The saya liner is numbered 1153 inside, and the tsuka has it written on it too: Both the tsuba and the large kai gunto seppa are also numbered with the roman numerals (yes, they are upside down, but the numbers are this way up for some reason): The habaki is also numbered, but using scratches instead: It all feels genuine, but the casting bubbles are fairly obvious on the tsuba, and even the inside of the habaki again looks cast. And considering the 1943 date, I'm guessing this is an example of the decline in the quality of production due to resource shortages. Out of interest, does anyone know what the highest numbered kai gunto is?

Apologies for the delay, I'm back home now with the blade in hand properly. Which Masayuki could it be though? Sesko only lists two Showa smiths of that name: MASAYUKI (正行), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Ōsaka – “Ikeda Masayuki kore o saku” (池田正行作之), “[Swastika] Masayuki” (卍正行), real name Ikeda Tatsuo (池田辰男), born November 20th 1938, he studied from 1954 under his father Masahisa (正久) (see picture right) MASAYUKI (正行), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Masayuki” (正行), real name Miwa Tomoo (三輪友雄), born August 8th 1895, he worked in Seki as guntō smith And the first one there would have been a toddler at the time that was signed... (Not to mention there is no swastika)

I like it! I can't comment on the price since I only buy <£1k, but it looks like a very healthy blade. 72cm nagasa, so I imagine it's also rather impressive in person too, even if it was once even larger. With regards to it being mumei - I'd personally always prefer mumei to gimei - the papers can always be sorted out later without additional risk (unless you really believe it should be attributed to a specific smith). This might be my inexperience talking, but could this one be even older than Shinto? The patina on the very end of the nakago seems pretty strong to me.

Thank you Jan!! Wow that was quick, amazing! I guess I'll spend the rest of the train and flight later researching I feel a bit better about not recognising some of those kanji too - they really are quite different! (Like the top grid of 濃 seems to be completely missing etc - much for me to learn about I suspect)

Hi guys, Hoping someone would be kind enough to help me again! I've tried translating this, but I just can't seem to find the matching characters for a bunch of these kanji... (Any book recommendations for a decent reference list beyond Sesko's Swordsmiths would be very welcome ) (The sword literally only arrived at my home today fifteen minutes before I had to leave for a ten day trip to Germany just, so apologies for the slight blurring - I've added the original auction photos to help too) Thanks, George

Thanks for the continued advice! In the end, using the mixed pictures I had available from the auction, I put bids on all of them, at levels I felt comfortable given the different amounts of risk involved with each one. So not quite a gut feeling, nor really waiting for one to speak to me, more like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what stuck The other people in the auction must have been bigger fans of shin gunto, or perhaps there's something terribly wrong with it I can't see in the pictures, but the only one I successfully bought was the Kai Gunto, at considerably less than I'd bid on the Yoshimitsu! Although it's going to take me a week or two to get the blade home, I've also already ordered some ashi from ebay, at about 1/4 of the price I paid for the entire thing. Parts aren't cheap are they? I can live without a sarute, as I understand these were sometimes cloth/rope, but I'm not so sure about the chuso clip. Is there a navy specific one I should be trying to find as a replacement, or are they the same as the standard shin gunto ones? And got to love small auction houses though. When I asked if there were any cracks or damage to the blade, they replied in an email that there was a "Small nibble to blade" - which is not something I've heard before whilst collecting lol. They also sent this wonderfully detailed photo of said nibble: I'm just hoping there isn't a hagire hiding somewhere :S

@Bruce Pennington Unfortunately the auction house never gave me a clear picture of the full nakago, and I didn't end up winning it either, but here are the pics I have from them, hopefully they are enough for your data:

Thanks Sam for that list, that's a big help! Unfortunately doesn't have any of the smiths I've identified on, which probably isn't a great sign. And that's a really nice blade John! I'm surprised nobody has snatched it up yet. Genuinely looks in really nice mint condition. The only problem is I'm UK based, and I don't really want to run the risk of our ridiculous customs. I'm also not talking about a lot of money here 😅 - you guys should know by now I prefer liberating blades at bargain prices. Well, that's the idea at least...

Unfortunately still waiting on decent photos... But will share when I get them And interesting - your point about condition and the cost of polish and repair is definitely one I'm going to think over! What about the other factors though, if they were all in an equally good condition? Would you rather a gunto in civilian fittings with a tassel to one in military one without a tassel? Would you rather a kaigunto over a shingunto?

Thanks for the warning Marzio! Looks like a nice blade though Given the terrible pictures I have, I am thinking the Yoshimitsu I'm considering has a high chance of having a stamp somewhere I can't see. Not even sure if he ever made gendaito, and I don't actually know where to check (I have limited books) The thing is, I'm fine with buying a showato if that's what happens - I actually don't have one yet - I just don't know how I should choose between different showato smiths if everything else is equal?

Thanks guys, your replies were much appreciated! I was hoping to reply again with better pictures from the seller/s, but they are being very slow about it... (I won't forget Bruce!)

Hi all, against all odds the tax man has actually reimbursed me some funds instead of take them away, and I'm now on the hunt for a new blade. I have my eye on some, but it's hard to choose between them! I know that signed gendai or older nihonto in military fittings are the dream, but I'm not sure how other things rank in rarity/value. In what order of value (not necessary monetary) would you consider the following (currently not in any particular order)?: 1. Mumei gunto, possibly gendaito, not older, no stamps, silvered habaki, with field grade tassel, in army fittings 2. HIDENOBU gunto, tachi mei + date, small "Na" Nagoya arsenal stamp (unsure if this 100% makes it a showato?), silvered habaki, in army fittings 3. YOSHIMITSU gunto, tachi mei + date, possibly no stamps, with company grade tassel, silvered habaki, in army fittings 4. Signed Kaigunto, tachi mei + date, seki stamp, in kaigunto fittings (but missing any ashi on the saya) 5. KAZUNORI civilian gunto, katana mei + date, seki stamp, in civilian fittings, but with civilian brown tassel Known smith details (not sure any of them made gendaito or not though - kind of assuming all three blades must be non traditional?): HIDENOBU (秀宣), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Hidenobu” (秀宣), real name Noguchi Satarō (野口佐太郎), born October 16th 1910, he worked as a guntō smith KAZUNORI (一則), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Kazunori” (一則), real name Kanematsu Kazuichi (兼松一市), born June 10th 1894, he worked as guntō smith and died December 9th 1944, posthumous Buddhist name Zendō Myōtoku (善導妙徳) YOSHIMITSU (義光), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Yoshimitsu” (義光), real name Yabushita Fujio (藪下不二夫), he was a Seki-based guntō smith Pretty sure I've got these three translations right as I confirmed them here: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/51632-confirming-my-translations-i Personally I'm currently thinking: 1. YOSHIMITSU gunto - without a stamp it could be a gendaito, and has a tassel. Complete package, limited risk 2. Signed Kaigunto - seki stamp means it isn't a gendaito, but kaigunto are fairly rare and I don't own one yet 3. HIDENOBU gunto - Assuming the na stamp means it is showato, I'm torn between this one and the mumei being next, but I feel the mumei is more of a risk 4. Mumei gunto - rarer field grade tassel. Could be a gendaito, but unsure how I could prove it 5. KAZUNORI civilian gunto - unsure of the rarity of civilian tassels, but it does have the seki stamp, so definitely not gendaito I am working on getting better pictures, especially of the kaigunto so I can make a better decision - but just assume I won't get them So just as a thought experiment more than anything else, which order would you choose? Thanks, and hope you're having a good day, George

Unfortunately I agree with Chris and Lewis - the acid treatment is a big giveaway that it isn't genuine (you can even see it on the tang). Don't be disheartened though, quite a few of us began collecting properly after first buying a fake (including me!). You can't know what you don't yet know, and it's hard to find info on nihonto. Best of luck learning more, and never be afraid of asking us questions about a sword before buying Also, thank you for your service - while I'm nice and safe in the UK so it's easy for me to say, but what's happening in Ukraine both saddens and angers me deeply. Stay strong.

Dude, I've made my fair share of mistakes when trying to treat rust, but what on earth possessed you to clean the copper 😅... Do you just really not like patina? Fair play with the leather work though - as Bruce has said the same sorts of rules that apply to the metals don't to this, because it degrades so quickly. Similarly replacing the wooden mekugi peg if needed is also fine. And as for the steel, people have mentioned that what you've done is bad, but haven't explained why too well beyond you halving the value. I now have at least three blades which have been mucked about with, and learnt the hard way about it all. 1. Japanese swords last hundreds of years. They get past from owner to owner, generation to generation. If someone in that chain doesn't look after it well, and rust builds up, it will need to be polished. Polishing is a destructive action - it always removes steel from the blade, never adds it. Yes, you have removed the rust, but in doing so have likely removed more material than a traditional polish would, shortening the swords lifespan. The nakago (tang) is never traditionally polished, or else the mei (signature) would quickly disappear. As others have mentioned, removing the rust from the nakago also removes one of the easiest ways to help date a blade. 2. The other problem with using sandpaper and stones without knowing enough about Japanese swords is you'll likely have changed the geometry of the blade, rounding edges and divisions that shouldn't be. For example most nihonto aren't shaped like a knife with a razor edge, and instead have a rounded niku/profile like the below (A.) example (https://japaneseswordindex.com/niku.htm): This profile can be easily altered unknowingly with stones and belt sanders. Similarly, the yokote (the vertical dividing line between the kissaki (tip of the blade)) and the rest of it should be a sharp transition, as should the shinogi (ridge line) - these again will likely have been rounded more than normal (https://www.Japanese...dex.com/glossary.htm). They are possible for a professional to fix if there is enough meat on the blade, but doing so will mean even more of the steel will need to be removed than in a normal polish to do so, shortening the blades life further. 3. Using the wrong tools (sandpaper / non-traditional stones) can cause issues in the polish, even when it looks half decent. With the help of others on this forum, it turns out these white lines on my blade are likely from this: Similarly, an uneven polish can cause other issues, like possibly exposing darker core steel (which is what I think maybe happening in other places on this sword): So hopefully that explains a bit more? I'm hoping to explain not just to you @2FixandRepair but also all the people that may come and find this post on the forum through the in-built search or through Google in the future. I genuinely don't mean to come down hard on you, as I've done a whole bunch of mistakes on my journey, and information on the topic is genuinely quite hard to find outside this forum. You are now the guardian of that sword, and while the recent changes aren't ideal, I hope you'll look after it so it can continue its journey and keep writing its history. In the meantime, if you have the slightest interest in learning more, please stick around! There's so much to learn and if you've got the right mindset, it's really rewarding!

Always had good interactions with both @Scogg and @Bruce Pennington - two of the very few people I've actually directly messaged for help, and never seen a bad word from either - great recommendations