Gimmick

"I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak. However, you came here with intention to seek their opinions, you got it and then you decided you didn't like what you heard." I came here to share a wakizashi with a nice hamon, nothing more! I asked for opinions like "hmmm, I prefer them straight", or "wow, that's beautiful", or "that reminds me of so and so", you guys turned it into "SHOW US THE NAKAGO" and made it all about signatures. I just thought I'd share a nice sword with people that would appreciate it and rejoice in an antique sword being found. The only persons to do so were Dan tsuba and this fine gentleman:

Which part of "satire" and "I jest" don't you guys understand? You are proofing my point exactly, you guys take things waaaaaaaaay too seriously. And you become hostile in the process. I'm not the first to remark on this. And frankly, there is a lot of arrogance. When I satirically and playfully reflect that arrogance, you guys start circling the wagons and grab hold of your crosses and pitch forks. I've shown gratitude for the input numerous times and I still intend to donate to the forum. Unless Brian thinks I'm not only wasting my time on Japanese swords, but also wasting my money on this forum? Are you above my contribution? I'll send you 50 USD right now, just say the word, and my money is yours. Also, my sword account serves emperor administrator Brian, if I am no use I will happily end my life stop posting.

You might miss the in-crowd, but you might want to open your eyes and ears to feedback from the out-crowd. It might enrich this forum you devote so much love, time and money to. Heck, you might even learn something! For example, that smiths are not that consistent!

I'm not saying signatures on a painting and signatures in steel can be compared, I'm saying people ignored the fact that the papered Sukenake signatures differ SIGNIFICANTLY, yet they are all papered, when the statement by Brian was "It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent." That may or may not be true for some smiths, but clearly not for Sukenake or whoever signed for him.

I enjoyed your post and story Okan, thank you.

I could point out the sophistry in Brian's reply, I could point out the ad hominem disguised as sarcasm in PNSSHOGUN's reply, I could point out that all of you conveniently IGNORED the wildly different Sukenake and Van Gogh signatures that I presented to you, and that you chose instead to hide behind "100+ books on the subject" and "all the collectors, organizations and museums in Japan", but I'm not here to argue. I'm just gauging this community with a bit of satire. And it seems to me that what unites the Nihonto community is not a passion for swords, but a passion for academics. It seems to me that you don't collect hand forged metal weapons, but you collect books, papers, and most of all, Japanese words describing hand forged metal weapons. Have you guys stepped back and looked at yourselfs lately? Here is a random advertisement: "Shinogi zukuri, iore mune, chu kissaki. There are bo-hi and soe-hi on either side of the blade. Small itame hada with ji-nie. The hamon is nioi deki in groups of choji midare, quite exuberant, and becomes midare-komi in the boshi with a shortish kaeri. The nakago is ubu, one hole. The blade is flawless; there are no defects. Other than for a small smudge just above the habaki on the omote the sword is in polish. It is mounted with a fine solid silver habaki in well made shairsaya (the polish, habaki, & shirasaya were done in Japan, I believe). This comes with a Hozon paper from the NBTHK in Tokyo, dated 2014, attesting to the signature and quality. Also included is a full length oshigata laid loose on a hanging scroll (from a Japanese dealer) and a silk-like bag for the shirasaya. Everything is in excellent condition." To quote the Great Australian Poet Bazza: Jeez, spare me!! I jest, I see the value in using the Japanese terminology. But I think the Samurai that actually used them would wet themselves laughing seeing a bunch of "straight white cisgender old men"* memorize this GLOSSARY (suddenlink.net). I still jest, I admire your dedication. But I still propose you guys are in love with academics rather than Japanese swords. And those same Samurai might tell you that dissecting a Sakura into a thousand pieces and naming each of them will not reveal its soul. *I'm not even remotely woke, but I bet one of these Nihonto meetings looks an awful lot like this! In all seriousness, I hope my satire sparks some new passion in some of you, and gives others the courage to speak up and go against the grain, or should I say, go against the Hada? MIC DROP (look it up boomer ) Found your reading glasses? "Mic Drop and Drop the Mic are expressions referring to the practice of intentionally letting a microphone fall to the ground as a display of bold confidence following a successful performance. Colloquially, the expressions have also been used to celebrate the delivery of an impressive argument or insult."

This is THE HUNT. This is PASSION.*1 This man was on his deathbed, and he was telling the others how he once lost $3k on a Nihonto and how he enjoyed every minute of it.* *1 You are entitled to your own style of collecting, in the manner that makes you feel comfortable. *2 Fake news.

Don't get me wrong. I don't discourage your approach, I find it very wise, all I'm saying is that it lacks passion. Collectors are all about the hunt, this approach seems to be focused on the end result and on the economics. What happened to the journey being more important than the destination? The journey is passion. I hope you experience passion in the selecting of a blade for restoration, I hope you rejoice in the unknowns. Restoration might be passion in itself, but who is paying for it?

These statements seem contradictory. Part of the crowd seems to be saying it is all about the sword, to heck with the signature, others feel insecure without papers and almost demand every newly uncovered sword comes with them, or at least that the easing of their mind is paid for by the discoverer of the sword. Collectors take risks and collect what they desire, what excites them, what fuels the flame that made them collect in the first place. Traders trade and calculate risks, hoping to make a buck. So are we collectors or are we traders? My favorite show is American Pickers. He is trying to make money, it's his job to buy and sell for a profit, and he is always transparent about it to the person he is picking. "Retail price is so and so, I need to have this and that fixed, I need to have it transported (if it doesn't fit in their van), I need to make some money too, so I'm a player at $xxx." Absolutely fair, and if they are too far apart, they move on to the next item. But sometimes Mike sees something that inspired him to become a picker - usually (a part of) an old bicycle or motorcycle - and all caution is thrown to the wind, his eyes light up, he NEEDS to own it and he pays accordingly, because it is going in his personal collection. So I ask again, are we collectors or are we traders? Ten Basic Rules Every Collector Should Know NEVER get emotional about any sword at any price. Buying on emotion and rationalizing it with logic can lead to the disappointment and regret also known as "buyer's remorse". Auctions are the number one place for emotion to over-rule common sense by building that competitive spirit between "rivals". Establish your limits and budgets and stick to them. Buy what you like and what you can afford. Don't strain the budget looking to acquire. The prudent sequence is; fund comfortably, acquire advantageously, enjoy profusely, learn extensively, liquidate equitably, repeat as needed. Take from the bottom, add to the top. A singular great work carries far more merit in a collection than a room full of low end junk. Great is always great. Junk will always be junk. Always has been, always will be. But starting at the top is not within the capacity of most folks, and starting with lower levels (not junk though) can build experience, knowledge, and savvy. Eventually, as knowledge, experience, and tastes improve, these pieces can be used as markers to augment moving into the next levels, by selling or bartering them into other pieces. Every acquisition should attempt to build equity to a future "better" piece. Take from the bottom, add to the top. This NMB FAQ sounds an awful lot like trading up to me. Then Basic Rules Every Trader Should Know? What is collecting if not emotion? Absolutely no one needs a Nihonto, let alone 20 Nihonto or a $50k Nihonto.

And as the Great Reformer and Savior of the Nohinto World - you may call me Miroku* - I name the Hamon on my Wak "coffee creamer". *It's called humor, guys.

By the way, Brian, I plan to donate to you/the forum if my sword sells through here, because I'm grateful for this platform, but I won't spare you in any way. "There are probably more gimei signatures on swords out there, than real ones." Citation needed, Brian! If enough people think this, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I also object to the following. A papered Sukenake wakizashi sold for $3,300, which might explain the top value you proposed if my one was polished and papered. Then people start calculating backwards to determine the value of "my" one. Polish is $1,000, other stuff is whatever, total restoration $2,500 so it's worth $800 to be on the safe side, or $1,000 if you feel frisky. But wait a second, the current owner isn't supposed to be paying for the restoration, now is he? In the car world you might own a great classic car that's worth $25k. A full restoration will cost you for example $30k. However, already restored examples sell for $45k, so it's not economically viable, people will tell you. It's better to buy the restored one, if you can afford it. But maybe someone really wants their example to be restored, so they pay up anyway. Or maybe all they can afford is an unrestored example. But in no way does this all of this mean that the unrestored car is worth $45k minus $30k = $15k. If there are similar swords out there - "tens of thousands" (!!!!) according to you - in top condition for $3,000, by all means buy them, but don't tell me something is worth $xxx because a higher value would mean you can't break-even if you decide to sell it after YOU (the buyer) decide to restore it. Restoration is almost always a partial write-off on objects below $100k, because of the cost of labor. Of course I try to buy my watches at a price where there is a chance of breaking even if I decide to sell it. No one likes losing money. But for the watches I really like, I pay extra and I don't care about the resale value, because I don't plan on reselling them. So are people here traders? Or are they collectors? So far the people showing interest in buying and restoring my Wak are thinking like traders, expecting ME to pay for THEIR choice to restore it.

Dunning-Kruger effect or non-conformist critical thinker that is not intimidated by echo chambers?

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I find the idea that the signature of smiths should be consistent over the years pretty laughable. Let's focus on the suka kanji like Okan did. You see two above in the quote. Here is a papered Sukenake from 1849. The two "dashes" are in a completely different place compared to the other two signatures, and the vertical line on the left is much longer. And here is a papered Sukenake from 1854. Here the position of the two dashes are pretty consistent with the very first one, but the kanji above it is very different to the same kanji in the very first one. It is funny Okan should mention Van Gogh. Here is a website about Van Gogh signature authentication: van Gogh Art Authentication | van Gogh Experts The three signatures shown are very different, especially the "V" and the "t", yet they are from the same year! Again, I mean no disrespect, but could it be that the Nihonto world has become an echo chamber of people screaming Gimei, and splitting hairs to proof their preconceived notions? If some of the statements about Gimei in this thread were on Wikipedia, you would see this next to it: For example, Okan stated: "There are 20x more gimei Sukekane than the ones from the actual smith himself.." Really? Says who? Can someone show me 5 gimei Sukekane. Or just two. Maybe the NIhonto community needs more science and statistics and less gut feelings, but what do I know?

Thanks for the kind words, Dan. That kukri is lovely, almost a sirupate, but a bit more belly, which is how I like them. I think if you like swords/edged weapons, it's hard to not like them all, medieval European, Asian, Arabian, you name it. For my collection I have limited myself to the khukuri, and I don't even attempt to play with the big boys, I just buy the cheap ones that speak to me. I've read in the FAQ that fate is part of collecting "If it was meant to be part of your collection, it will be either now or sometime in the future. Eventually it all comes back around, or perhaps something better." Now there is some optimism! As for the fate of "my" sword. It would be great if it shined again, but as with cars, restoration is usually not worth it from an economic perspective. A $15k car might "only" be worth $40k after a $30k restoration, yet plenty of people do it, whilst other people enjoy the patina. I think the hamon on this one deserves a polish though, I find it beautiful, but it won't be me making that expense. I will list it in the sales section and entertain some offers.

Buddy, I did not call anyone jealous, I was speaking about possibilities and asked if I should apply the same pessimistic skepticism to forum members, and people replied I need not worry. Thank you for the vote of confidence. Thank you for the vote of confidence.

Well I'm glad to hear that nihonto collectors and the members of this forum have more honor than the Japanese people that created, traded and bought them I am not about to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars into a restoration. I am the first person in my family to show any interest in the blade and investigate its identity. In fact, when I previously saw this sword, I didn't even bother looking into it, I kind of assumed it was a mass-production sword for soldiers, because who would bring a priceless sword to war? Also, I had no idea swords came with both fancy stuff and a simple wooden scabbard for storage, so I saw this as a utilitarian sword. Oddly enough, in khukuri world they get a boner for military issue khukuris, but I get the feeling the military history of this particular sword has no added value to nihonto collectors. I almost think a WWII collector would pay more for it knowing it was carried by a Japanese soldier, perhaps the same one that tortured my grandfather on the Burma Railway. I myself am not sentimental about heirlooms. My philosophy as a collector is that I want my items to be with the person that will appreciate them the most, which is not always the person that will pay me the most for it, though when selling something, money is always a factor. So I do see this sword leaving my collection at some point. Before I created this thread, I suspected it could be worth from €600 up to possibly €2000 depending on the signature. Now I am more educated, but if I am to sell it, the money will go towards buying more watches haha. For anyone who is interested, here are some of my khukuri (I don't care for the military issue ones), with a modern Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri (blade length 30.5 cm/12 inch) for reference. The two biggest ones were likely ceremonial or gifts. One came from Brunei, where the Gurkhas guard the Sultan, the other came from Burma, where the Gurkhas fought in WWII. If someone did fight you with the bigger ones, you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. They are actually so similar that I believe them to be made by the same kami (smith).

Fair enough, but if I have to let go of any notions of honor and have to assume the worst in objects and people, why shouldn't I also assume that people on here get sour when a random person who has invested nothing in the study and collecting of nihonto comes up with a possibly very special wakizashi, and they cope with the cognitive dissonance (why does he get a lucky inheritence when I've invested half my life and spent thousands of dollars bla bla bla) with a knee-jerk reaction of GIMEI!!!!!!!! Is that the Land of Reality you want me to come down to? Because wherever I see collectors, be it watches, toy cars, guitars, whatever, the one thing that unites them all is envy. I've recently discovered a rare toy car from a German brand that was made exclusively for or even in Japan. It's from 1978 so no one had any clue it existed. None of the big collectors of this brand will even touch it or show interest, because they are not the one who discovered it and they are not the one who owns it. My interest is sharing a piece of the history, their interest is being the best at collecting. So my gut feeling is saying that some of you are interested in genuinely identifying my sword and learning in the process, and that some of you are interested in feeling better about not being the owner by casting doubt where it may or may not be warranted. Or are all members on this forum above that? Wouldn't that be a bit rosy-eyed? Either way, I asked for opinions in my first post and I appreciate all of them, I was just not prepared for this can of worms and I will now read the Why Gimei thing.

I am not discounting anyone's experience - since I have zero knowledge on the subject - I'm just surprised to hear that assuming gimei is the norm, and I find it hard to rhyme with Japanese honor. Add to that the fact that I know the provenance of this particular sword - it was carried in WW II - and I've read that families gave their family sword to the person going to war so he would be careful and feel the responsibility to bring it back and that "the Japanese sword is foremost regarded as an object of spiritual protection and art". It makes no sense to me to keep a gimei in the family and give it to your son going to war, unless the family was duped back in the late 1800s, or if they willingly bought a gimei, because maybe no one cared, like wearing fake brand clothing or sunglasses. Both scenarios would have to make me rethink my notions about Japanese honor. Sure, there are unscrupulous folks in all societies, but why would they bother to pick this smith's signature to copy, I'm sure there are more desirable names as Matsunoki pointed out. It is not uncommon for people to stamp lousy "army codes" or arrows on a random khukuri to give it fake military provenance, but they do this because most modern collectors prefer military khukuri over village khukuri. That you guys are saying that this was done frequently in period in Japan, I find very off putting, and I fail to see the motivation, unless, again, they didn't care if they had a pair of fake Gucci sunglasses. If there is one thing I find dishonorable, it is lies, whether spoken or written. If you can't trust a signature for what it is, that just sucks. Having said all that, I put zero stock in remarks like "total gimei.", and personally I also fail to see why a smith would bother doing his own signature, when there's a ton of apprentices around to do the boring work, unless it was a matter of honor to sign it themselves, but apparently a gimei was so common as to not be dishonorable, and if it was so common that means none of the smiths bothered to do anything about it, and it might have also not been illegal or worth stopping. Like how counterfeit clothing is everywhere in Turkey, but is stopped here at the borders. Of couse that doesn't stop cheap fake and high quality hommage Rolex and Breitling and AP from being available here, but there are many factors to discern them, most tellingly the movement if you open it up. And now I learn here that opening up your sword is where the controversy begins! Despite the naysayers, when I read this: "From Aoit Art: At the end of Edo period, many sword makers were making Nioideki Cyuji midare hamon. Yokoyama Cyoji midare hamon, his student Sukakane made a lot of this type of Hamon and also educated many student and asked to make this Cyoji midare hamon. So his stdent like Sukeyoshi, suketoshi Sukenao are making this kind of hamon. It is very easy to distinguish his or his family’s hamon. This blade is healthy typical Sukekane hamon." It should be pretty easy for an actual Sukekane expert to recognize the hamon on my sword as his, similar to how a <insert painter> expert immediately recognizes the brush strokes and whatever. As for the hamon approaching and entering the nakago, this is the best I can do.

If anyone has any evidence that there are gimei out there for bizen osafune yokoyama sukekane saku, please share, because I can only find "real" ones with NBTHK papers, two of which also happen to be wakizashi. And the signature on for example the katana is also very "thickly" chiseled and full of "triangles". I couldn't even write two identical signatures with a pen on paper if my life depended on it, so I don't know what the threshold is for chiseled signatures that might be years apart. Katana: Bizen Koku Osafune Ju Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com) Wakizashi(Sunnobi Tanto):Bizen Osafune Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Shop Aoi-Art (aoijapan.com) Wakizashi: Bizen Kuni Osafune Yokoyama Sukekane Saku | Japanese Sword Online Museum (aoijapan.net)

So if this gimei phenomenon is so common, how can there be "experts all over the world that can accurately evaluate" this or any sword? How would they have been able to see enough genuine swords by <insert smith> to confidently assess which blade length, width, depth of curve etc indicate an original sword by said smith?

My question is: unless someone is personally familiar with the style of this smith, why would anyone (in this case Okan) assume it looks gimei and amateurish? I'm an expert in certain fields myself and I only make such statements when I'm 90% sure. These two look pretty darn identical to me. Assuming the one on the right is the real thing (I forgot where I found it but it was some fancy sword with papers) you'd have to have it physically next to you to mimic it to this level. So that's why I'm asking: is it nihonto collector etiquette to just throw doubt around?

You've accused people before of being aggressive, it seems you are quick to jump to conclusions in all areas of life. I'm not being aggressive, I'm just questioning your questioning.

Be that as it may, accusations or guesses are easily made, but who is going to say otherwise other than those two organizations in Japan who want to see the sword in person? And it might not be an insult, but like I wrote in Dutch to Okan, statistically there's a high probability that my father or the father of someone reading this is not their biological father, but you better have good reason to say so before you tell that to your mother or a stranger! Your nose looks different isn't gonna cut it haha. I understand that even very talented painters might choose to copy the masters, either to make money or for the kick of passing as something real, so I can understand the same can be true for nohinto, but even as someone new to this subject, when I look at the whole sword and the hamon in particular, I don't see why the sword smith wouldn't want to make a name for himself considering his obvious talent.

If it helps the experts to assess the statement that it looks "amateurish" by Okan, here is a comparison with an identical piece:

In the other collector's world I'm familiar with, which is wrist wratches, when people say 'fake' they also come up with reasons. Like: the serial is wrong. Or: the letters in the logo are misaligned. Either way, there are clear, telltale signs. I still hear no reasons other than "it used to happen a lot". Is this nihonto collector etiquette of gewoon oud-Hollandse kift? Er is (statistisch gezien) een grote kans dat mijn of jouw vader niet onze biologische vader is, maar dat roep je toch ook niet tegen je moeder of tegen een vreemde zonder goede reden!