Gimmick

Why didn’t you write all that in the first place? That’s much more constructive then telling people they are novices that should catch up on 1000 years of whatever. It’s still very light on sources, but at least it sounds more convincing to newbies, and it might encourage them to research more. Your usual attitude of disdain is not encouraging anyone on the other hand.

I see the downvote crowd still believes this forum to be a popularity contest. Brian, you are intelligent enough to be able to distinguish between fact and doctrine and between sources and hearsay. Yet whenever a “contrarian” appears, you seem to denounce them as heretics and act like the inquisitor, trying to silence the debate with fallacies and unverifiable “truths”. Have you read these hundreds of years of Japanese texts yourself? You can put your faith in anyone you like, but if you have no actual facts or sources to offer, why do you engage so negatively in this discussion?

I think Dan is both proposing a theory, and asking for sources to support the theory that all (early) smiths did sign their own mei, whether because they were literate enough to do so or because they were using examples. Why is the base assumption that (early) sword smiths also do mei chiseling? Or if it is not an assumption but fact, what are the sources for this? And again, if smiths in the 1930s did sign their own mei, that has no bearing on the times before that. Many men these days wash their own clothes, most didn't in the 1930s. Many women have full-time office jobs these days, most didn't in the 1930s. It seems, Brian, you are very attached to the 1000 year fallacy. "I don't care whether it's gimei or not. Doesn't matter....on project swords signed by average smiths, it matters little. You aren't questioning this sword anyways. You are challenging the entire 1000 year old tradition. You have insulted the NBTHK, and decided for yourself that the entire shinsa process is a joke." "This idea that everything we have learned in 1000 years is false because modern theories are suddenly true is a weird one. Mei were part of the process of signing swords. Don't really care who thinks that variances in handwriting mean mei are suddenly being misjudged. That is for the novice to go and learn more, not for the rest of us to unlearn what we know. Give it up boys. There are hundreds of years of study into this subject, mostly in Japanese. Pretty sure the shinsa panels know what they are doing. You aren't going to prove anything wrong." There is a 2000 year old institution with millions of followers and countless experts who own and have written way more books than the nihonto crowd. They base their tradition on false assumptions like "the earth was created in 6 days" and "Mary gave birth to Jesus as a virgin". You can build 10,000 years of tradition on false assumptions, but it won't ever make them the truth. You also seem to think our goal is to proof things wrong. You are displaying typical status quo behavior in my humble opinion, when all we are doing is offering new perspectives. You can have your virgin birth mei though, we don't care either, Brian. If you want to claim you are a nihonto scientist when you are acting like a nihonto priest, that is fine too.

My takeaway from this long story is the following: 1) You indeed cannot discuss "smiths chiseling mei" without specifying the period, because of developments in literacy throughout the centuries. 2) There were likely plenty of people around even in earlier times to provide a smith or chisel expert with an example (on paper) for them to copy. Unfortunately this story does not answer questions like: 1) Did it make sense for (early) smiths to chisel mei, or was it a specialty like wrapping the handle, sharpening the blade, etc. 2) Were the smith mei and date mei typically done at the same time and/or by the same person?

I was about to bring up these possibilities. Let's suppose a sword smith had incentive to do the chiseling himself, rather than a specialist, then indeed an illiterate sword smith, or even an illiterate chisel specialist, could do the mei based on an example inked on steel, an example made previously in steel, or an example inked on paper. At least the family/school/smith name, since that stays the same, either in short or long form. The illiterate chiseler would have more problems with signing the date though, and he would need a literate person to make a custom example for him on paper (or on the object, but that seems impractical). And since he is unfamiliar with all these date kanji, the likelihood of inconsistencies in the strokes and "flow" is much greater. And the family mei and date mei might even be done on different occasions, depending on the availability of the literate person. This might even explain why on the same nakago often the date mei has a very different style than the smith mei. They might have even been done by different people on different days, because why would a sword smith bother with doing a date mei or a dedication mei? So even if we solve the illiteracy problem by giving smiths an example to copy, the question still remains "if there are any historic documents on the prevalence of smiths signing their "own" mei for each historic period", and then "own" mei should also be split in family/smith mei and date/dedication mei.

You bring up some very valid points. I would be very interested to know if there are any historic documents on the prevalence of smiths signing their "own" mei for each historic period. Was it a specialty done by a few persons as Dan suggests? Was this person part of the school or was he "independent"? Could it have been done by an apprentice? Or did it differ per family/school if mei signing was done internally or externally or by the smith (if he could read and write) or not? Without solid answers backed by historic documents, I don't see how anyone could be confident in saying anything about any mei from times when illiteracy was still common. The recent discovery of the "barn find" sword that has an identical mei down to the date as another mei, with significantly different strokes, makes the questions in this thread even more important to answer. Until that time, having a ton of experience and examples might help to give a plausible authenticity for the meaning of/claim made by the mei in relation to the style of the blade or tsuba, but unless there are very hard facts about WHO did the signatures throughout the different time periods and geographical locations, it seems completely baseless to judge a mei by the "style" or "flow" (unless they are true hack jobs of course). Certainly statements as were made in the controversial thread I started like "It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent." should really be cause for concern if you are to take the study of nihonto seriously. I mean, have a close look at this and tell me how consistent it is: Isn't that also what Mark S. was saying? The photos are already pretty clear. But again, how meaningful are the strokes unless we know the facts about who made the strokes in the first place. And any facts regarding this matter for let's say the period 1900-1950, might have absolutely no bearing at all on the periods 1600-1700 or 1800-1900 or however nihonto are classified. "You're completely missing the point. Gimei isn't about comparing mei with the same smith's signatures alone. It's about knowing HOW they are carved, and knowing tiny little traits and stroke directions and seeing more than just a 2D image. You need to ready the large chapter on gimei in the Nihonto Koza. But that's not gonna happen." Perhaps someone who has read said chapter can comment on the WHO, because the WHO precedes and determines the HOW.

I hope @Noah is fine with me posting his photo here as it is a beautiful example of what has been discussed in this thread.

After searching the forum I found that Gabriel L wrote about the vajra/kongo and horimono back in 2014. You might find it interesting.

It looks a bit gimei to me. But I'm in a good mood, so I'll give you 100 USD for it. All kidding aside, those grandfathers had some good stuff stashed away! If it is what people think it is, it seems to be worth 10x what the nihonto that my grandfather brought back (from possibly Saigon) is worth. By the way, I am not versed in nihonto but I am versed in Buddhism, and the claw like thing you see on the blade is called a vajra (Tibetan: dorje, Japanese: kongo), which is a Vedic/Buddhist symbol: Vajra - Wikipedia

I recently disassembled an old sword without issues, despite having the same worries as you. But as Stephen said, take your time. These guys will be able to tell you all you need to know once they see certain bits. Or perhaps a forum member lives relatively close to you, and they might be willing to meet up one day and assist you? Or you could visit one of the meetings.

I have kept my word, but Brian has granted me permission to continue posting "if he chooses to participate the way we do and civilly". This thread went from 2.7k to 3.3k views since I stopped posting. But as Brian said, this particular thread is done. I'm only here to say that I listed my "project sword signed by an average smith" days ago and it sold pretty much within hours, to someone who is not offended by my satire and dark humor, and the transaction has since been completed. He values both the wakizashi and the military provenance, and I will provide him with a copy of my grandfather's memoires that he wrote in English, titled: My years as a prisoner of war of the Imperial Japanese Army, by European Homeguard sergeant 1st class J. van Haastert. I will leave it to the buyer to disclose his identity. If he decides to restore it, you might get a better look at that lovely hamon. I am honored that the buyer will be the next custodian, and I think my grandfather would be very happy if he knew that someone would read his memoires so many years later. My grandfather was not attached to it, he gave it to my father on a random day without any backstory. I think he would have loved the research I have done, and the answers some of you have generously provided. I don't think he would have loved my particular brand of discourse, but I'm having some lovely private conversations with NMB members, so I can't actually be the devil. I've actually modeled my provocative satire after my favorite baby boomer, though technically being born in 1943 he is not a baby boomer. It is none other than Jim Morrison, who enjoyed The Living Theatre and Artaud: "For Artaud, theatre could transcend fiction and become life – not acting but action. He used taboo images (death, incest and scandal) to SHOCK audience members into an infectious madness." Would you believe it that I have an IQ of 130+? You've all been unknowing participants in an art performance, you've been played like a fiddle, to the point where Brian was forced to do as I told him, which was to tell me to stop posting. Now that is art. Live art. All the ideas you have in your mind about who I am are reflections of yourselves. The "Gimmick" you perceived in this thread is your Shadow Self, Carl Jung might say. Or maybe I'm just a d*ck and a bullsh*t artist "who needs his head read"? Either way, I've gifted an antique Nihonto to the community, and I hope it will be enjoyed for many years to come. Don't you worry, I won't be dancing on anyone's grave, I wish you long life and prosperity.

2.7k views. Keep clicking guys. You honor this "Attention W.hore". It's been fun today. No takers on the friendly bet though. Maybe in the morning if I can still log in? Peace be with you.

Do it, Brian. It will be a good death. Perfect. The opinions in this thread are all... Perfect.

2.6k views. 7 hours left for the experts to step up. You know who you are. I'm ready to take some more abuse if you feel so inclined. Then I will remind you of your imminent mortality and advise you to spend the few years you have left more wisely. Go get your fifth jab before the corona gets you! Okan crossed a line and there is no going back. I will keep piling the boomer bodies until Brian stops me. Or we can go back to discussing Sukekane nihonto.

Showing your true colors. Lovely. White male boomers being abusive. What else is new? Keep it coming guys. Who is next? If I am the kid you think I am, ten years from now I will be able to dance on your graves and buy your precious papered nihonto for pennies on the dollar when your offspring gets rid of them.

Hi J. Some of you might find it hard to believe and call me a liar, but I've had appreciative PM's from people who enjoy me standing up to the bullies on this forum, who are rude and unwelcoming to newcomers. If you see attitude in my posts towards some individuals, they are simply reaping what they have sown. As for the folks staying quiet but contributing to the 2,400 views in a couple of days... Many people simply don't like confrontation, and if they think me unworthy of their input, I have no hard feelings. It is beyond me why any one else would have any want to do with the gimmick as well, yet you guys can't click this thread quick enough. I have taken photos of the signature to the best of my ability. God willing the sword will soon be sold, and it is up to the new owner to decide on things like certification and restoration. Perhaps he will take you up on the offer if he happens to be located in the USA and wants to disclose his identity. And for the next 7.5 hours the bet is on the table if people want to put their money where their mouth is. I personally don't care, and I have not once in this thread solicited an opinion on the authenticity of the mei, only on the meaning of the kanji. My wish was to bring this Japanese sword to the attention of those who love them. That I ruffled some feathers in the process is if anything a bonus and is welcomed by people who have PM'd me. Brian can stop me any time he pleases, yet he chose to say things like this: Is that becoming of a host? Belittling me and threatening the other forum member that expresses doubt over claims about Gimei. Yet I kneel humbly before the administrator/emperor, and ask him to accept my sword. If tomorrow this thread hits 3k views, you guys are entertained no matter how much you loathe me. Cheers F.

I've stated already, I don't care if it is Gimei or not, the sword will sell as "a nice wak that is signed so and so and has such and such military provenance". I'm just not convinced people here are capable of identifying a Gimei Sukekane. If they believe they can, let them enter the bet. If four "experts" put down $50 each, I will put down the other $200. Not because I am convinced that I am right, but because I am convinced that they don't know what they are talking about, and I'm willing to spend $200 to proof their ignorance. It will be a nice gift to whoever buys the sword, and we will all have learned something. As for what I am trying to accomplish? If I have amused you while sitting at work bored, I have accomplished everything! So who is willing to step up to the plate? Give me four names - not nicknames, first name, last name and your e-mail address in a PM - and give me your word here that you will pay where everyone can see it. You have 8 hours to sign up.

Your memory is rather selective, is it not? I am very thankful that you encouraged me to look at the nakago and assisted in the translation. I very much admire the translation skills present on the forum. The only thing I'm rejecting is the "Gimei expertise" that is based on absolutely nothing. Some people take this personally, I guess they think very highly of themselves and have invested their identity and self-worth in their ability to assess Gimei. Why don't we have a friendly bet? Why don't all of you put your money where your mouth is? We go 50/50 on getting certification for this blade (paid to the person who buys it). If it is Gimei, I reimburse the 50% of the "experts" who said so and I apologize for doubting you. If it is not Gimei, you reimburse me my 50% and eat some humble pie. Who wants in?

Read my first post: How could I have asked for opinions on signatures when I didn't even know if it had one and I wasn't even aware of the existence of Gimei? That ball started rolling much later, and people got upset when I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. There was consensus about WMDs in Iraq, remember how that turned out? Your consensus about Gimei means nothing to me. All of you have zero authority to speak on Mei versus Gimei. That is my opinion, if this offends you, I'm truly sorry. As part of the council of advisors to the emperor Brian, petition him to cancel me and I will bow out.

Great comeback! I'm sure it will get many anonymous likes from other brave individuals.

Are you here to engage in the discussion or are you here to moan? Are you going to post a Sukekane Gimei now or are you going to sit on the bench and keep rooting for the bullies?

Here are the lower parts of several papered Sukekane: As you can see they are not that consistent, and neither is the hamon pattern, but maybe that was the point, because as I've quoted before: "Special Feature: Yokoyama Sukekane 58 Dai Mago: just because he was the 58th grandson of Bizen Tomonari. Yokoyama school has invented unique “Yokoyama Choji” and flourished. It was unprecedented that they broke the going Choji methods and invented new means." Interestingly, the one that doesn't end more straight is from 1859, whilst my sword is dated 1860 and it looks very much the same.

I did not backpedal at all, in fact I reiterated that I reject your Gospel of Gimei as fantasy, and you try to crucify me for it. Now you burden me with even more fantasies? Checked this guy’s IP against known elements? Are you paranoid? I’ve never been here in my life. This is supposed to give me trust in your expertise? A man too proud to take my money and too spineless to take my sword when I call him out for fostering a hostile forum. I repeat: tell me to stop posting and I will gladly do so. Or stop judging me for not drinking the Gimei Kool-Aid and for questioning “experts” that present no evidence whatsoever. Not even one Gimei Sukekane has been posted here! So far they exist only in your collective fantasy! Hate me for speaking the truth, and silence me if you must. I kneel humbly before the administrator.

Again, I don't care either way, I didn't even know Sukekane or any other smith existed a couple of days ago, so how can I be disappointed? But what puzzles me, is that I am lead to believe that when people on this forum state something like this so confidently, almost as fact "the signature does not match how Sukeane signed", I am supposed to take their word for it, rather than question how many Sukekane mei they have seen, and how many Sukekane gimei they have seen, and why exactly they think they are qualified to make such a statement and what exactly it is about the signature on mine vs the others that makes you think it does not match. You guys make me believe you are all at the level of FBI signature experts, superior even, because you take into account 3D movements and flow, and all this is the result of your many years of experience. At the same time you confess that you are often wrong and that even at the top level there is disagreement. But maybe it is all just a sport until there are papers - which you obviously put a lot of faith in, as if these people are infallible and as if there is no possibility of corruption or conflicts of interest. And these people will even demand you remove the gimei before they paper it based on their opinion of the style of the blade? And people submit to that? Typically these type of certification schemes (like Ferrari Classiche certification will cost you $650 to open a file and then it's a matter of thousands of dollars depending on how much they investigate) only serve rich collectors, rich traders and the institutions that certify. And things that begin with the best of intentions (preservation, filtering out fakes) can end up being a cure that is worse than the disease. But now I dare question not only the generous forum members, but even the Gods of NBTHK, I do apologize... It's all simply amazing... Maybe one day in the future, when all gimei have been persecuted into oblivion, a gimei will demand a premium.

Shower me with your compliments, oh Great Poet of Oz. Very honorable.