Gimmick

Why didn’t you write all that in the first place? That’s much more constructive then telling people they are novices that should catch up on 1000 years of whatever. It’s still very light on sources, but at least it sounds more convincing to newbies, and it might encourage them to research more. Your usual attitude of disdain is not encouraging anyone on the other hand.

I see the downvote crowd still believes this forum to be a popularity contest. Brian, you are intelligent enough to be able to distinguish between fact and doctrine and between sources and hearsay. Yet whenever a “contrarian” appears, you seem to denounce them as heretics and act like the inquisitor, trying to silence the debate with fallacies and unverifiable “truths”. Have you read these hundreds of years of Japanese texts yourself? You can put your faith in anyone you like, but if you have no actual facts or sources to offer, why do you engage so negatively in this discussion?

I think Dan is both proposing a theory, and asking for sources to support the theory that all (early) smiths did sign their own mei, whether because they were literate enough to do so or because they were using examples. Why is the base assumption that (early) sword smiths also do mei chiseling? Or if it is not an assumption but fact, what are the sources for this? And again, if smiths in the 1930s did sign their own mei, that has no bearing on the times before that. Many men these days wash their own clothes, most didn't in the 1930s. Many women have full-time office jobs these days, most didn't in the 1930s. It seems, Brian, you are very attached to the 1000 year fallacy. "I don't care whether it's gimei or not. Doesn't matter....on project swords signed by average smiths, it matters little. You aren't questioning this sword anyways. You are challenging the entire 1000 year old tradition. You have insulted the NBTHK, and decided for yourself that the entire shinsa process is a joke." "This idea that everything we have learned in 1000 years is false because modern theories are suddenly true is a weird one. Mei were part of the process of signing swords. Don't really care who thinks that variances in handwriting mean mei are suddenly being misjudged. That is for the novice to go and learn more, not for the rest of us to unlearn what we know. Give it up boys. There are hundreds of years of study into this subject, mostly in Japanese. Pretty sure the shinsa panels know what they are doing. You aren't going to prove anything wrong." There is a 2000 year old institution with millions of followers and countless experts who own and have written way more books than the nihonto crowd. They base their tradition on false assumptions like "the earth was created in 6 days" and "Mary gave birth to Jesus as a virgin". You can build 10,000 years of tradition on false assumptions, but it won't ever make them the truth. You also seem to think our goal is to proof things wrong. You are displaying typical status quo behavior in my humble opinion, when all we are doing is offering new perspectives. You can have your virgin birth mei though, we don't care either, Brian. If you want to claim you are a nihonto scientist when you are acting like a nihonto priest, that is fine too.

My takeaway from this long story is the following: 1) You indeed cannot discuss "smiths chiseling mei" without specifying the period, because of developments in literacy throughout the centuries. 2) There were likely plenty of people around even in earlier times to provide a smith or chisel expert with an example (on paper) for them to copy. Unfortunately this story does not answer questions like: 1) Did it make sense for (early) smiths to chisel mei, or was it a specialty like wrapping the handle, sharpening the blade, etc. 2) Were the smith mei and date mei typically done at the same time and/or by the same person?

I was about to bring up these possibilities. Let's suppose a sword smith had incentive to do the chiseling himself, rather than a specialist, then indeed an illiterate sword smith, or even an illiterate chisel specialist, could do the mei based on an example inked on steel, an example made previously in steel, or an example inked on paper. At least the family/school/smith name, since that stays the same, either in short or long form. The illiterate chiseler would have more problems with signing the date though, and he would need a literate person to make a custom example for him on paper (or on the object, but that seems impractical). And since he is unfamiliar with all these date kanji, the likelihood of inconsistencies in the strokes and "flow" is much greater. And the family mei and date mei might even be done on different occasions, depending on the availability of the literate person. This might even explain why on the same nakago often the date mei has a very different style than the smith mei. They might have even been done by different people on different days, because why would a sword smith bother with doing a date mei or a dedication mei? So even if we solve the illiteracy problem by giving smiths an example to copy, the question still remains "if there are any historic documents on the prevalence of smiths signing their "own" mei for each historic period", and then "own" mei should also be split in family/smith mei and date/dedication mei.

You bring up some very valid points. I would be very interested to know if there are any historic documents on the prevalence of smiths signing their "own" mei for each historic period. Was it a specialty done by a few persons as Dan suggests? Was this person part of the school or was he "independent"? Could it have been done by an apprentice? Or did it differ per family/school if mei signing was done internally or externally or by the smith (if he could read and write) or not? Without solid answers backed by historic documents, I don't see how anyone could be confident in saying anything about any mei from times when illiteracy was still common. The recent discovery of the "barn find" sword that has an identical mei down to the date as another mei, with significantly different strokes, makes the questions in this thread even more important to answer. Until that time, having a ton of experience and examples might help to give a plausible authenticity for the meaning of/claim made by the mei in relation to the style of the blade or tsuba, but unless there are very hard facts about WHO did the signatures throughout the different time periods and geographical locations, it seems completely baseless to judge a mei by the "style" or "flow" (unless they are true hack jobs of course). Certainly statements as were made in the controversial thread I started like "It only takes one kanji to be really off for someone to state with reasonable confidence a sword is gimei. Smiths were consistent." should really be cause for concern if you are to take the study of nihonto seriously. I mean, have a close look at this and tell me how consistent it is: Isn't that also what Mark S. was saying? The photos are already pretty clear. But again, how meaningful are the strokes unless we know the facts about who made the strokes in the first place. And any facts regarding this matter for let's say the period 1900-1950, might have absolutely no bearing at all on the periods 1600-1700 or 1800-1900 or however nihonto are classified. "You're completely missing the point. Gimei isn't about comparing mei with the same smith's signatures alone. It's about knowing HOW they are carved, and knowing tiny little traits and stroke directions and seeing more than just a 2D image. You need to ready the large chapter on gimei in the Nihonto Koza. But that's not gonna happen." Perhaps someone who has read said chapter can comment on the WHO, because the WHO precedes and determines the HOW.

I hope @Noah is fine with me posting his photo here as it is a beautiful example of what has been discussed in this thread.

After searching the forum I found that Gabriel L wrote about the vajra/kongo and horimono back in 2014. You might find it interesting.

It looks a bit gimei to me. But I'm in a good mood, so I'll give you 100 USD for it. All kidding aside, those grandfathers had some good stuff stashed away! If it is what people think it is, it seems to be worth 10x what the nihonto that my grandfather brought back (from possibly Saigon) is worth. By the way, I am not versed in nihonto but I am versed in Buddhism, and the claw like thing you see on the blade is called a vajra (Tibetan: dorje, Japanese: kongo), which is a Vedic/Buddhist symbol: Vajra - Wikipedia

I recently disassembled an old sword without issues, despite having the same worries as you. But as Stephen said, take your time. These guys will be able to tell you all you need to know once they see certain bits. Or perhaps a forum member lives relatively close to you, and they might be willing to meet up one day and assist you? Or you could visit one of the meetings.

This "project sword signed by an average smith" as Brian calls it, has been sold. Thank you kindly for the platform, I am honored to pass it on to the next custodian. I will leave it up to the buyer to disclose his identity.

I have kept my word, but Brian has granted me permission to continue posting "if he chooses to participate the way we do and civilly". This thread went from 2.7k to 3.3k views since I stopped posting. But as Brian said, this particular thread is done. I'm only here to say that I listed my "project sword signed by an average smith" days ago and it sold pretty much within hours, to someone who is not offended by my satire and dark humor, and the transaction has since been completed. He values both the wakizashi and the military provenance, and I will provide him with a copy of my grandfather's memoires that he wrote in English, titled: My years as a prisoner of war of the Imperial Japanese Army, by European Homeguard sergeant 1st class J. van Haastert. I will leave it to the buyer to disclose his identity. If he decides to restore it, you might get a better look at that lovely hamon. I am honored that the buyer will be the next custodian, and I think my grandfather would be very happy if he knew that someone would read his memoires so many years later. My grandfather was not attached to it, he gave it to my father on a random day without any backstory. I think he would have loved the research I have done, and the answers some of you have generously provided. I don't think he would have loved my particular brand of discourse, but I'm having some lovely private conversations with NMB members, so I can't actually be the devil. I've actually modeled my provocative satire after my favorite baby boomer, though technically being born in 1943 he is not a baby boomer. It is none other than Jim Morrison, who enjoyed The Living Theatre and Artaud: "For Artaud, theatre could transcend fiction and become life – not acting but action. He used taboo images (death, incest and scandal) to SHOCK audience members into an infectious madness." Would you believe it that I have an IQ of 130+? You've all been unknowing participants in an art performance, you've been played like a fiddle, to the point where Brian was forced to do as I told him, which was to tell me to stop posting. Now that is art. Live art. All the ideas you have in your mind about who I am are reflections of yourselves. The "Gimmick" you perceived in this thread is your Shadow Self, Carl Jung might say. Or maybe I'm just a d*ck and a bullsh*t artist "who needs his head read"? Either way, I've gifted an antique Nihonto to the community, and I hope it will be enjoyed for many years to come. Don't you worry, I won't be dancing on anyone's grave, I wish you long life and prosperity.

2.7k views. Keep clicking guys. You honor this "Attention W.hore". It's been fun today. No takers on the friendly bet though. Maybe in the morning if I can still log in? Peace be with you.

Do it, Brian. It will be a good death. Perfect. The opinions in this thread are all... Perfect.

2.6k views. 7 hours left for the experts to step up. You know who you are. I'm ready to take some more abuse if you feel so inclined. Then I will remind you of your imminent mortality and advise you to spend the few years you have left more wisely. Go get your fifth jab before the corona gets you! Okan crossed a line and there is no going back. I will keep piling the boomer bodies until Brian stops me. Or we can go back to discussing Sukekane nihonto.