Nihonto student

In the meantime I had the opportunity to back home and I also find some example you post (Never stop to learn :)) however some stroke in your blade do not convince me, but Jacques anticipated me, pointing out the differences as best.The fact that the signatures can have small differences? Yes but IMHO in this case they seem a bit too many and evident and considering that we are talking about one of the best "aesthetes" of the Shinto period it makes you think...even the inclination and spacing of the characters don't seem perfect. It would also be interesting to know if it's a blade for sale/bought from Japan or found in the attic so to speak... Sukehiro without paper is already strange...Shinsa? Of course... but I would not send it to Japan because is not in prenestine polish...so polish + all other costs for me no worth the risk in this case, I would bring it to some show to be evaluated by many before thinking of spending the money. Giordy

For me the fundamental point concerns the character Tsuda 津 (Name of his family) that he will add when changing style, before his signature in kakudome only reports Echizen (no) Kami Sukehiro. But I will be happy to be proven wrong if someone reports a certified example . Giordy

Dear Sebastien, Sukehiro nidai started to inscribe his signature in square style (Kakudome) then change to cursive style (Sosho) from 1674 if I remember correctly. I'm not aware of the existence of hybrid signatures as it should be in your case, but if I had to bet I'd say it's gimei. Regards, Giordy

Dear Salvatore, I agree with DoTakuni regarding the fact that the blade was stored in poor conditions, then also the type of material used can speed up the process, about 40 years ago my father bought the classic 70$ replica of a wakizashi in stainless steel, without oil or maintenance of any kind it still doesn't have a single point of rust. Giordy

Dear Robert, I agree with Kirill about the dating but personally I have more of a bizen den feeling, shinogi-ji hada looks itame and I would expect to find masame in a Mino blade, lack of nie and general soshu den features, kurijiri nakago call Bizen den but was popular also in Mino den at the end of Muromachi...if it is a Mino blade it still has a marked influence of Bizen. Giordy

Ciao Matteo, based on the sugata and the conditions of the nakago I would quote Kirill regarding the fact that late Muromachi have to be taken into consideration but beyond the issue of falsifications where you can already find many treads on the forum I would like to express a personal reflection: Shinshinto, mumei, suriage, unpapered put these elements together in the same description and you will not have a desirable object at least on paper (This is absolutely not a judgment on the blade itself Matteo) if the seller specializes in nihonto, and has had the opportunity to studying the blade thoroughly and reselling it declaring the above-mentioned characteristics for me is already in itself a good sign of honesty, if he had had doubts or wrong intentions he could have sold it as late Muromachi and the blade would have had a greater appeal (at least on paper) to be sold more quickly. Giordy

For me looks like Hizen Fujiwara Kunihiro I but I could easily be wrong...

Nice to see that we have another passion in common Steve cheers!

Grant, forgive me for being long-winded but it's always difficult to summarize certain concepts... indicating an entry level threshold is always a bit subjective but I would say first of all that there are two base factors to mention, the reference market (Japan and the United States generally have average prices much lower than in Europe, also for tax reasons) and the type of blade...tachi, katana, wakizashi or tanto, where long blades (Tachi/katana) are more coveted and generally more expensive but as I was saying there are no fixed rules... you can find a tanto which for various reasons costs 20 times more than a long blade. I find your idea of price ranges correct overall, I can understand your idea of starting from the bottom and in any case regardless of your budget I wouldn't recommend a 20,000 blade as a first purchase it would be like buying an expensive bottle of wine without knowing anything about it, at most you can say it's red... so generally in the 400-1000 price range beyond historicity you will find little that has to do with art or even less a piece that gives you the opportunity to learn (The opportunities to find something decent exist but it is not the rule ). My advice, is to think of a budget around 3,000, in this range you can already find some interesting objects, for long swords you won't be able to have too many expectations but for wakizashi and tanto you will already find signed and certified blades. Remember also to consider the price compared to the complete purchase package, i.e. what is sold together with the blade? Koshirae? Shirasaya? Both? the cases obviously have a value and can be very high... if you think of the blade as a painting think of the mount as its frame. Regarding the risk, some considerations: I would like to say that Japanese swords are generally not a good investment in an economic sense, we can say they hold up inflation well but increasing their value over time is a bit optimistic and in any case subject to price fluctuations like the entire art world. In most cases when you resell a sword you will not get back the money you spent on it, so be aware of this. The first thing to avoid scams is to contact a reliable dealer like the many you can find here on the forum and avoid buying on ebay or secondary auctions, to buy there you must already have a certain eye, then regarding the certifications the only one truly recognized on a global level it is issued by the NBTHK in Japan of which you can see the various rankings here https://www.japanswo...tificates-standards/ . Having an NBTHK certificate does not automatically increase the value of the blade (Sometimes yes depends on what degree of attribution is given along with other factors) but exponentially increases its saleability (This will be familiar to you from the world of coins) however even they are not infallible and you will find many posts here on the forum where attributions are discussed. Regards, Giordy

I don't think it will be easy to find comparisons for Moriie outside of the Kamakura period, I can tell you that this dealer mainly sells blades that are problematic in terms of condition or "discussed" origin. Then in general we have to ask ourselves, why does a dealer in Japan with NBTHK behind his house sell non-certified blades? Answers: 1) He knows very well that the signature is fake so he doesn't even try to certify it. 2) He tried to certify it thinking he had a chance but it was rejected. In any case, I saw that in the last few days this dealer added also some certified blades, so if I were you I would try to see something that would give me greater security...then the fact remains that if you like the blade and the price is appropriate...why not ?

Carlo, some images of the complete blade would help to contextualize the signature, if I remember correctly there are some Moriie in the Muromachi period, and outside of Bizen I remember one from the Takada school but still none worthy of note... the name Moriie is an important name therefore without certifications of any kind I would assume that it is Gimei.

Dear Grant, your post respects the doubts of many at the entrance to the world of nihonto, a vast and complex world where for every rule there are 1000 exceptions and paradoxes which makes it difficult to make statements that are dogma. Having made this introduction, I first of all join Oliver in advising you to control your purchasing impulse and invest your money in books and your time here in the forum (There are always blades for sale). As far as possible, however, I would like in a general way to try to express some concepts to answer your doubts, although, as already said, each statement deserves to be properly contextualized. I would start by saying that the first question to ask yourself is why I want to buy a Japanese sword, the answer to this "simple" question will give you many indications on the characteristics that the object you desire must have, this is because for example if you are looking for a sword to place on the furniture and talk about it with friends (No offense to anyone) any blade in fair condition can accomplish this task, if instead you are looking for a sword as an object of study for a specific period/school...etc. maybe resell it in the future to buy another one then the object must have certain characteristics. Given your experience as a collector, I seem to understand that historicity is a relevant element for you, as far as Japanese swords are concerned, older is not automatically more expensive even if certainly when talking about pre-1400 blades, historicity certainly has an important weight in evaluation and this leads me to answer your question regarding the price...asking how much a nihonto costs is like asking how much a painting costs, the answer can only be "which painting?" As with paintings, the Japanese sword has more highly rated artists than others for each historical period and the evaluation of each work, even of the same smith, can vary significantly based on the quality of the work itself and its conditions, just to mention a couple of variables. In these terms, the description of the blade you are looking for, although generic, is very ambitious and can ideally represent the dream of many collectors. A signed blade from the Kamakura period in excellent condition from a renowned school/smith obviously certified you can get above 100.000 but you can also find blades from the same period (Minor school, unsigned, not immaculate conditions, intrinsic quality of the work not excellent etc..) that start from 7/8.000. This simply to make you reflect (Without any offense) on the phrase "I do generally understand how values can be determined", even if you have been a collector for a long time the Japanese sword represents a world of its own in art and knowing it, appreciating it, evaluating it, is the study of a lifetime. Regarding the purchase there are specialized dealers in the US that you can find here also here on the forum, or a dealer in Japan as Aoiart that Oliver suggested to you but in this case you will have to consider inquiring yourself about the import documentation and each country is different in this , furthermore in the United States there are several sword shows (Tampa, Vegas etc..) which in your case would be an excellent opportunity not only for a potential purchase but also to start having a direct comparison with this world and have the opportunity to see different blades to start building the foundations of your knowledge. I guess now you will have even more doubts...welcome to the club . Regards, Giordy

Dear Andrew, as suggested by Stephen, the best thing is to take it to an event and get opinions from competent people who can help you in its evaluation which depends on many factors and advise you as best as possible. However, I would like to give you some info to stimulate your curiosity about the object you have in your hands. The line of smiths using the name Sukesada is among the longest in the history of the Japanese sword, nihontoclub.com lists around 70 different smiths using this name, of which the best (For many) in the Koto period are Hikobei no Jō Sukesada (彦兵衛尉祐定) and his son Yosozaemon Sukesada (与三左衛門尉祐定, 1466-1542). The name Sukesada is generally associated with the mass production of swords during the Sengoku period where the demand for swords was high and so the quality tended to be poor on average, but this does not mean that higher quality blades were not produced. In particular regarding Sukesada the general rule is that the type of signature reflects on the quality of the work, here you will find the explanation in detail https://www.mandarin...ssary/bizen-sukesada. I would like to point out that this rule is not imperative and there can always be exceptions, which is why a blade must always be viewed in hands... but following this rule (If your signature will be considered authentic) the blade will be a medium-high grade and will certainly make it a desirable object. There are many Sukesada blades on sale but many fewer signed and dated. Regards, Giordy

Dear Reinier, regarding the incorporated habaki it is not automatic that it was done to save money, in some cases can can be a good sign but in this case knowing the dealer and the blades he sells, I would say yes.

Rather than style I would call it necessity... after the Meiji edict of 1876 which prohibited carrying the sword I can imagine how difficult it would be for a samurai to give up the most precious thing for him, so some rather than feeling dishonored chose "illegality" and continued to carry a sword in this way, other people instead simply saw the possibility of self-defense taken away and this represented a solution against thieves and bandits. For this reason I tend to generally frame this type of object within the Meiji period 1868 -1912 but I don't think we can talk about an end to production because it was a "Necessity" and as long as there is demand there is supply, however, given the condition of the object, I don't think the dating affects the value in this case. Only a togishi could tell you if it is possible to intervene with a polish but I believe that with such a thin kasane there is the risk of more important openings and in any case the cost of the polish would be higher than the value of the blade so my advise is to enjoy it like this. Personally, whether quality or not, I think it's a nice object to have and one that stimulates conversation. Regards, Giordy

All the straight blades like this one that I saw in shikomi zue were dated post 1850, also AOI art had something similar on auction about 1 month ago but I can't find it anymore, regarding forging flaws Jean has already pointed out that they may not be directly related, it may depend on how it was polished and maintained ecc... then in my opinion the construction of these blades tended to be less thick also due to adaptation to its case (Have you check kasane measure?). In any case, find a way to remove the handle, I wouldn't even be able to sleep for the thought Regards, Giordy

Dear David, I agree with Jean, the blade was born shikomi-zue, difficult to say anything else without seeing the nakago and also given the condition of the blade, it seems to me to see masame hada and wide shinogi -ji and this leads me to think of Yamato and related schools but I could easily be wrong. Regards, Giordy

Dear Mark, my 2 cent: In collector terms Suriage/Machi-okuri it is generally accepted for koto blades especially from the Kamakura and Nambokucho periods as many of these blades were shortened in the Muromachi period due to the change in fighting style which preferred the short blade to the long one, consequently the Ubu blades of such periods can acquire great value because it is a great plus. For Shinto blades in general, being shortened is a big handicap in terms of value and saleability. However, what I have said must be put in relation to other factors, therefore each situation must be evaluated individually on how much a shortening affects the actual value of the blade. Your question there may be various explanations and points of view, but they are difficult to prove. Personally I think there are 2 main reasons: - Forgeries to make the blade look older - New owner who prefers a different balance or who needs a shorter blade due to physical physiognomy Personally I don't think it's to hide flaws in the nakago but with this I don't mean to say that it has never happened, simply that cases can be different like fatalities in life so I prefer to express the two cases that for me statistically tend to repeat themselves more frequently Regards, Giordy

Dear Mark, in my humble opinion I agree with the previous posts... the blade has a series of positive elements (Ubu, signed, very healty with TH paper) also compared to the price at which it is offered therefore I think it can perfectly perform the "function" of display, as John said perhaps a koshirae would be more appropriate to complete the package. I wonder if there is a particular reason that pushes you to consider a Shinto blade as your first purchase (There could be many, just my curiosity). Regards, Giordy

Dear Lex, for a new shirasaya I suggest you Mr. Movilli in Italy...more than 20 years experience in the field and he use real magnolia wood from Japan. This is his website http://www.Japanese-sword.it/index.html where you can also find the price list for the various services offered. Greetings, Giordy

Dear Jon, can you please describe the measurements of the blade? Than a picture of the complete nakago and more detailed pictures of the hada and hamon would help. Tsunatoshi worked mainly in Bizen Den so you should find similarities in style to give author/work coherence before moving on to the signature. Regarding the signature, nijimei seems quite strange to me, curious to see if other members can bring similar examples. Regards, Giordy

I think that for a collector the issue of fear is linked only to the economic aspect, a crack inside the sword does not change its external image but for the market the price certainly changes, I think that collectors who can afford these blades (And pay for them 4 times the evaluation)https://www.christie...m/en/lot/lot-6389183 do not have the slightest interest in encouraging a scientific examination that provides certainty, indeed they will discourage any possible interference in this sense and the reason is obvious. It is good for many that at least part of the market remains in the gray zone, if tests like this one reach lower costs in the future and they could also be feasible for swords in the order of 8-10k it would undoubtedly be an epochal revolution for the sector. Regards

Dear Patricius, from the Roman republic 509 BC Rome was divided into 3 social classes: the patricians (Aristocratic families), the plebeians (Working classes) and slaves, this at least until 264 BC. when the plebs raise their social status with laws and rights (this to simplify). The name Patricius in Italian is translated as Patrizio which is not so common to hear for a man is more common for a woman (Patrizia), therefore in the end your name can be translated as "Aristocrat" so not bad.... PS: Sorry for being off topic Peter, very interesting article personally I think that these analysis methods will be increasingly used and on one hand I see it as right, but on the other hand if a computer is able to give all the answers I'm scared that lot of the culture that revolves around kantei will be lost... Regards

Dear Chris, I came across your post very interesting for a comparison with my blade of which I have already requested opinions in these 2 posts and which had the same attribution (Late generation Morishige) but JTK. I am happy to see that Mr. Kirill has already participated in this post and having seen his interventions in mine, I hope he can intervene here too with his expertise regarding the obvious but complex question ... "are the same hands that forged these two blades?”. In my humble (Very humble) opinion sugata looks quite different, Chris' blade seems to have a shallower sori (It would be helpful to have all the measurements) less tapered and with more motohaba but equal kasane. The nakago has a different shape, more squared in Chris's blade (As in all Omiya-judged swords I've seen). Surely both have a common style in the hamon, I would define mine as more "crowded", boshi also look for me similar but mine look more sugu. Regarding the Hada it is still difficult for me to distinguish from the photos but I would still say similar. I therefore leave the floor to the experts who, as always, I thank in advance for their contribution, hoping that this comparison can be stimulating.

Dear Michael, thank you for your contribution, certainly with your observations the certificate acquires more credibility therefore a connection with the Morishige line is plausible, I've seen other photos of Morishige blades here on the forum and there are many similarities but in general nakago seems more refined and I can't find a match for the yakidashi. However I think Kirill and Alex have given correct indications on where to investigate.