Nihonto student

you are comparing completely different works and eras so, if there is no rush, I would take some time to delve deeper into the topic and as Michael said perhaps rely on an expert who can best guide you. Talking about Top notch from an investment point of view imho a Koto sword will always have more appeal and solid market than a new blade. Seyundo's Tadayoshi is magnificent... but if you buy from them you have to forget the word investment. Regards, Giordy

Hunter, you're on the right way, it's clear that you've spent some time on it and this is in itself a sign of a good attitude, keep going!!. Some considerations: the sori is related to the nagasa, a sori of 1.4 in relation to the nagasa 45.4 is an accentuated curvature, if you had a nagasa of 70 with the same sori it would instead be moderate. Regarding the hamon the term midare is generic (Midare = irregular) practically all hamon are midare with the exception of the pure suguha. In your case we have a Gunome midare, Kirill (Rightly) used the word periodic to describe it, this indicates that even if the individual patterns are irregular (Midare) and differ from each other they still tend to repeat themselves constantly. I look forward to seeing your other blades soon ;). Regards, Giordy

Hello Hunter, grouped gunome, togari and some tobiyaki combined with the classic Muromachi sugata... it is a blade from the sue Seki school of the Mino tradition. Arriving at a single attribution is much more complicated, stylistically there is a lot of similarity between Seki smiths in the late Muromachi. Regards, Giordy

Hello Mark, I agree with Kirill assessment, I add that considering the suriage the mekugi at the bottom would seem too high to be considered as shinobi ana therefore I would be inclined to think that the original mekugi is the central one...we will therefore have a nagasa around 65 cm which would fit perfectly with a classic mid-Muromachi uchigatana...if the last ana was the original one, the shape would actually be a bit strange. Regards, Giordy

Ciao Daemon, I start from the fact that the evaluation of a blade must be done individually, each blade is a story in itself... on paper, considering that the price is from a dealer located in Italy (Very well known and respected) it seems to me quite in line with the market, it is difficult to think of doing super bargain by buying from a dealer in Europe, due to taxes and bureaucracy. Masahiro is certainly a respected blacksmith, but are there any particular reasons that push you to make this choice? For that price there is a wide choice... Regards, Giordy

Dear Steven, maybe in the next days I should have time to post some photos of my Hisamichi nidai, even if the signature is eroded and only part of the Eda kiku remains. However I can say that the Eda kiku is executed a bit crudely compared to the examples you can see here http://www.nihonto.us/HISAMICHI KATANA.htm also note how the stem in your example is very short... regarding the blade I would expect chu kissaki with Mishina boshi (Like mine) IMHO O kissaki as in your example doesn't seem appropriate... Regards, Giordy

Here a good example to compare: Signature: we've already discussed this extensively, I'll just point out how the "Kami" character is significantly different from your blade, "the hat" is wider and more uniform with a less pronounced curve and on both sides the strokes tend to be inclined and not straight (As all other examples), some variations are however present in this signature. Sugata: the blade has slight sori and taper from the monouchi area, your blade is more curved without taper, also note the high mune. From Sesko kantei:"At Sukehiro and his students for example, the shinogi is usually extremely low so that it sometimes even seems optically as if the blade thins from the mune to the shinogi. Hamon: From the photos I don't see notare elements but a variation in height is clearly visible

Rick forgive me I responded quickly because I was busy but without carefully reading your post...my condolences...the blade is definitely the same I hope Mr. Hannick can tell you more about the blade, maybe he also had the possibility of studying it personally. @GeorgeLuucas thank you but credit goes to g Google...I was looking for info on Mitsumoto and... Giordy

Hello Rick, check this old post.

As Doug said check the swords by your self to find key elements: Expected: high mune (Steep oroshi) Dense ko-itame, plentiful ji nie,sugu- yakidashi, notare or notare like elements are always present in his interpretation of suguha. Giordy

Don't know if it is a filled ana, a failed attempt or just a sign... but in any case why should it have changed compared to the other examples? there is no apparent reason... To many things do not convince me but this is just my opinion Sebastien take it as such, as I already said take it to someone to see anyway... there have been cases in which I would have gambled the house that a signature was real only to then have to change my mind... over time you become more critical... assuming it is authentic it is still worth making an economic reasoning if you think about a restoration + certification, keeping in mind that Sukehiro's works in suguha are very less valued than an opera in toranba (Sukehiro made beautiful suguha but this is the market). Giordy

Dear Taylor, for an evaluation you should post accurate photos of the blade and the nakago, in any case the blade is signed and certified by NBTHK so I don't think there can be any doubts about its authenticity, the cases that the NBTHK is wrong are rare especially on a signed blade. Giordy

Agree..the flow is not bad is a good attempt, but please look at the position of the first kanji on both sides respect to the ana, in all examples the Kanji starting position is extraordinarily identical and the ana just touches the shinogi...in the blade in question the Tsuda character starts well below the ana then on the other side in the examples the stroke follows the curve of the ana finishing itself below (Very elegant) demonstrating the clear intention of preserving the kanji from the ana, in the blade in question the position of the kanji is wrong, the ana surpasses the shinogi and affects the kanji. PS: don't know about you but analyzing the examples I was moved by the precision and elegance of Sukehiro, what a great artist . I discovered hot water? no I only bow before such beauty. Giordy

In the meantime I had the opportunity to back home and I also find some example you post (Never stop to learn :)) however some stroke in your blade do not convince me, but Jacques anticipated me, pointing out the differences as best.The fact that the signatures can have small differences? Yes but IMHO in this case they seem a bit too many and evident and considering that we are talking about one of the best "aesthetes" of the Shinto period it makes you think...even the inclination and spacing of the characters don't seem perfect. It would also be interesting to know if it's a blade for sale/bought from Japan or found in the attic so to speak... Sukehiro without paper is already strange...Shinsa? Of course... but I would not send it to Japan because is not in prenestine polish...so polish + all other costs for me no worth the risk in this case, I would bring it to some show to be evaluated by many before thinking of spending the money. Giordy

For me the fundamental point concerns the character Tsuda 津 (Name of his family) that he will add when changing style, before his signature in kakudome only reports Echizen (no) Kami Sukehiro. But I will be happy to be proven wrong if someone reports a certified example . Giordy

Dear Sebastien, Sukehiro nidai started to inscribe his signature in square style (Kakudome) then change to cursive style (Sosho) from 1674 if I remember correctly. I'm not aware of the existence of hybrid signatures as it should be in your case, but if I had to bet I'd say it's gimei. Regards, Giordy

Dear Salvatore, I agree with DoTakuni regarding the fact that the blade was stored in poor conditions, then also the type of material used can speed up the process, about 40 years ago my father bought the classic 70$ replica of a wakizashi in stainless steel, without oil or maintenance of any kind it still doesn't have a single point of rust. Giordy

Dear Robert, I agree with Kirill about the dating but personally I have more of a bizen den feeling, shinogi-ji hada looks itame and I would expect to find masame in a Mino blade, lack of nie and general soshu den features, kurijiri nakago call Bizen den but was popular also in Mino den at the end of Muromachi...if it is a Mino blade it still has a marked influence of Bizen. Giordy

Ciao Matteo, based on the sugata and the conditions of the nakago I would quote Kirill regarding the fact that late Muromachi have to be taken into consideration but beyond the issue of falsifications where you can already find many treads on the forum I would like to express a personal reflection: Shinshinto, mumei, suriage, unpapered put these elements together in the same description and you will not have a desirable object at least on paper (This is absolutely not a judgment on the blade itself Matteo) if the seller specializes in nihonto, and has had the opportunity to studying the blade thoroughly and reselling it declaring the above-mentioned characteristics for me is already in itself a good sign of honesty, if he had had doubts or wrong intentions he could have sold it as late Muromachi and the blade would have had a greater appeal (at least on paper) to be sold more quickly. Giordy

For me looks like Hizen Fujiwara Kunihiro I but I could easily be wrong...

Nice to see that we have another passion in common Steve cheers!

Grant, forgive me for being long-winded but it's always difficult to summarize certain concepts... indicating an entry level threshold is always a bit subjective but I would say first of all that there are two base factors to mention, the reference market (Japan and the United States generally have average prices much lower than in Europe, also for tax reasons) and the type of blade...tachi, katana, wakizashi or tanto, where long blades (Tachi/katana) are more coveted and generally more expensive but as I was saying there are no fixed rules... you can find a tanto which for various reasons costs 20 times more than a long blade. I find your idea of price ranges correct overall, I can understand your idea of starting from the bottom and in any case regardless of your budget I wouldn't recommend a 20,000 blade as a first purchase it would be like buying an expensive bottle of wine without knowing anything about it, at most you can say it's red... so generally in the 400-1000 price range beyond historicity you will find little that has to do with art or even less a piece that gives you the opportunity to learn (The opportunities to find something decent exist but it is not the rule ). My advice, is to think of a budget around 3,000, in this range you can already find some interesting objects, for long swords you won't be able to have too many expectations but for wakizashi and tanto you will already find signed and certified blades. Remember also to consider the price compared to the complete purchase package, i.e. what is sold together with the blade? Koshirae? Shirasaya? Both? the cases obviously have a value and can be very high... if you think of the blade as a painting think of the mount as its frame. Regarding the risk, some considerations: I would like to say that Japanese swords are generally not a good investment in an economic sense, we can say they hold up inflation well but increasing their value over time is a bit optimistic and in any case subject to price fluctuations like the entire art world. In most cases when you resell a sword you will not get back the money you spent on it, so be aware of this. The first thing to avoid scams is to contact a reliable dealer like the many you can find here on the forum and avoid buying on ebay or secondary auctions, to buy there you must already have a certain eye, then regarding the certifications the only one truly recognized on a global level it is issued by the NBTHK in Japan of which you can see the various rankings here https://www.japanswo...tificates-standards/ . Having an NBTHK certificate does not automatically increase the value of the blade (Sometimes yes depends on what degree of attribution is given along with other factors) but exponentially increases its saleability (This will be familiar to you from the world of coins) however even they are not infallible and you will find many posts here on the forum where attributions are discussed. Regards, Giordy

I don't think it will be easy to find comparisons for Moriie outside of the Kamakura period, I can tell you that this dealer mainly sells blades that are problematic in terms of condition or "discussed" origin. Then in general we have to ask ourselves, why does a dealer in Japan with NBTHK behind his house sell non-certified blades? Answers: 1) He knows very well that the signature is fake so he doesn't even try to certify it. 2) He tried to certify it thinking he had a chance but it was rejected. In any case, I saw that in the last few days this dealer added also some certified blades, so if I were you I would try to see something that would give me greater security...then the fact remains that if you like the blade and the price is appropriate...why not ?

Carlo, some images of the complete blade would help to contextualize the signature, if I remember correctly there are some Moriie in the Muromachi period, and outside of Bizen I remember one from the Takada school but still none worthy of note... the name Moriie is an important name therefore without certifications of any kind I would assume that it is Gimei.

Dear Grant, your post respects the doubts of many at the entrance to the world of nihonto, a vast and complex world where for every rule there are 1000 exceptions and paradoxes which makes it difficult to make statements that are dogma. Having made this introduction, I first of all join Oliver in advising you to control your purchasing impulse and invest your money in books and your time here in the forum (There are always blades for sale). As far as possible, however, I would like in a general way to try to express some concepts to answer your doubts, although, as already said, each statement deserves to be properly contextualized. I would start by saying that the first question to ask yourself is why I want to buy a Japanese sword, the answer to this "simple" question will give you many indications on the characteristics that the object you desire must have, this is because for example if you are looking for a sword to place on the furniture and talk about it with friends (No offense to anyone) any blade in fair condition can accomplish this task, if instead you are looking for a sword as an object of study for a specific period/school...etc. maybe resell it in the future to buy another one then the object must have certain characteristics. Given your experience as a collector, I seem to understand that historicity is a relevant element for you, as far as Japanese swords are concerned, older is not automatically more expensive even if certainly when talking about pre-1400 blades, historicity certainly has an important weight in evaluation and this leads me to answer your question regarding the price...asking how much a nihonto costs is like asking how much a painting costs, the answer can only be "which painting?" As with paintings, the Japanese sword has more highly rated artists than others for each historical period and the evaluation of each work, even of the same smith, can vary significantly based on the quality of the work itself and its conditions, just to mention a couple of variables. In these terms, the description of the blade you are looking for, although generic, is very ambitious and can ideally represent the dream of many collectors. A signed blade from the Kamakura period in excellent condition from a renowned school/smith obviously certified you can get above 100.000 but you can also find blades from the same period (Minor school, unsigned, not immaculate conditions, intrinsic quality of the work not excellent etc..) that start from 7/8.000. This simply to make you reflect (Without any offense) on the phrase "I do generally understand how values can be determined", even if you have been a collector for a long time the Japanese sword represents a world of its own in art and knowing it, appreciating it, evaluating it, is the study of a lifetime. Regarding the purchase there are specialized dealers in the US that you can find here also here on the forum, or a dealer in Japan as Aoiart that Oliver suggested to you but in this case you will have to consider inquiring yourself about the import documentation and each country is different in this , furthermore in the United States there are several sword shows (Tampa, Vegas etc..) which in your case would be an excellent opportunity not only for a potential purchase but also to start having a direct comparison with this world and have the opportunity to see different blades to start building the foundations of your knowledge. I guess now you will have even more doubts...welcome to the club . Regards, Giordy