Soshin

Dear Edward F., I still think your tsuba to be considerably older in age and is a member of the Ko-Kinko group. I think you would notice some very significant differences if you had the Goto tsuba in hand to compare. The photo of the Goto tsuba is so poor I can't see much including the surface texture. Your tsuba has what I think are signs of lacquer being allied at some point in the distant past. This was a common practice of bushi before the Edo Period. To correct a minor technical point hot stamp were not used in soft metal alloy tsuba (i.e. kinko) only in iron tsuba. Stamp like design were often done with a special type of chisel and hammer. It is discussed in the following blog about a tsuba made by someone who trained with the late Edo Period Goto masters: http://kodogunosekai.com/2011/06/18/imai-nagatake-%E4%BB%8A%E4%BA%95%E6%B0%B8%E6%AD%A6%E3%80%80%E8%8A%B1%E6%8A%BC/. I hope you find the information helpful in your study. Yours truly, David Stiles

Would agree with Christian the tsuba is likely the work of the Saga Kaneie school. From looking at the low resolution photos I can make out a few parts of the mei. The Saga Kaneie school of the middle to late Edo Period (i.e 1700s and 1800s) always signed in the same manner as the second Kaneie master of the early Edo Period. A frequent subject was Chinese style landscapes with people. I hope you find the information helpful. I like the tsuba just wish you would post higher resolution photos. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Curt R., It is good that you didn't over pay for your first purchase. Given what it is its what I would consider a fair price. But be prepare to pay much more for a medium and high end menuki set. This is the right mindset to have starting out and it will allow you to go far. Just start by looking around for links section of this website and sales forum for a start. Even if you not ready to buy it will allow you to see what is out there in the international market. A final recombination is to attend one of the Japanese sword shows in the USA as it will give you a good opportunity to see what is out their and see many more menuki sets in hand without buying. I hope you find this information helpful. Yours truly, David Stiles

I would agree with Bob's analysis of the menuki in question. Overall not the worst first time purchase I have seen. I also like the Kyo-Kinko school as well. They often made good quality copies of the Goto school work during the Edo Period. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Elliott, Lets all relax because the weekend is almost here. :D I didn't think the above quote was intended topic of the thread. I was thinking that the topic of the tread was about a specific example of a fairly common Namban style cast iron copy. As a group Namban, Kanton, or Kagonami tsuba and the specific sub-classifications (Hizen, Nagasaki, etc.) are not made of cast iron. I have two Kanton style Namban tsuba in my collection one with a dealer paper and I can assure everyone that neither are made of cast iron but are made of forged iron with craved designs. I think this would be a great topic for discussion on the NMB Tosogu forum. I really like Bob Haynes and Torigoye ideas about a more detail classification of Namban tsuba group in Tsuba An Aesthetic Study. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi John B., I hinted at this in some of my earlier posts about this tsuba. I don't think this tsuba is a product of the two great generations of Kaneie masters of Momoyama and early Edo Periods nor should it just be considered a gimei. I think it is a fairly good representation of the middle Edo Period Saga Kaneie school. Another common name for this school is the Tetsujin school. During the middle Edo period Kaneie style tsuba were very popular and some other schools including Umetada school started making tsuba in that style. The Saga Kaneie school unlike the Umetada school would always sign their tsuba using a mei style of the second Kaneie. Just my two cents. I hope you find the information helpful. Yours truly, David Stiles

I was hoping that Elliott, Lorenzo, Thomas, or David or others could provide a updated post SF Token Kai about what was discussed on the topic of cast Namban tsuba. I would love to know if any new facts or examples were uncovered. Thanks for taking the time to update the topic. Yours truly, David Stiles

This signature on the other side of the "nakago-ana" is bushu-ju (武州住). The tsuba is clearly a Chinese fake. The Kanji of the mei is better then most fake copies I have seen. Yours truly, David Stiles

I see in the first photo a poster for Ken's new book about WW2 Japanese Dirks. Having viewed some of his wonderful collection I sure the book is going to be a very good reference. Brian Snoddy's illustrations are wonderful of Japanese armor. Wish I could be there but their is always next year. Thanks for taking the time to post some photos of the show. Yours truly, David Stiles

Here is a link to another Umetada Shigenari tsuba signed in a similar way as mine clearly also done in a Edo Period Kaneie style: http://www.nihonto.us/UMETADA%20SHIGENARI%20TSUBA.htm. I find it interesting that Shigenari also sometimes used the name Narishige on his tsuba. I just wanted to add the additional information I found on the web. All of this evidence supports the suggestion that I have heard and read that during and after the sixth generation the Umetada school mostly did copies of other popular styles/schools of the time period including Kaneie, Shoami, and even the Echizen Kinai. Some Japanese experts suggest this was the result of later generations not having the ability to recreate many of the masterpieces produced by Umetada Myoju, Umetada Myoshin, or any of the other early masters of the school. See attached image of a Umetada tsuba I have done in a style similar to the Echizen Kinai school. Comments and questions always welcome. Yours truly, David Stiles

Thanks John B., The gold nunome-zogan style inlays on my tsuba were a bit worn off on the omote side due to rust pitting that have since been removed by the tsuba former owner. The ura side has the gold nunome-zogan style inlays in better condition. Your tsuba inlays all seems to be in good condition. Here is a scan of a similar tsuba to mine from the NBTHK Token-Bijutsu monthly magazine issue number 636. Notice the great similarly in the workmanship of the waves and the use of gold nunome-zogan style inlays. The signature is very good match as well in terms of how Umetada Shigenari (埋忠重成) Kanji is carved. As well as how the nakago-ana is finished is similar. Yours truly, David Stiles

Purchased my book direct from Markus S. and it was a very enjoy and informative read. Just the thing I need for my research. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi John B., Nice Saga Kaneie school tsuba. I really like the design. The waves reminds me of a Umetada Shigenari tsuba I have. Shigenari often made tsuba in a Kaneie style but was a member of the Umetada school around the time of the sixth generation master Shigeyuki (ca. 1700). Here is a photo of the Shigenari tsuba I have for comparison. Both Shigenari and Saga Kaneie school often used nunome-zogan style gold inlays. Thanks for sharing. Yours truly, David Stiles

This year show was really great and I enjoyed myself greatly. I was allowed to start matching faces with names outside of my local Japanese sword club of Maryland and Northern Virginia. I am very much looking forward to this show in early 2012 and will be submitting something to the NTHK shinsa as well. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Thomas, Thanks for the write up and research you did about the tsuba and swordsmith who made it. These type of research projects I find really interesting to read and discuss. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Pete, Thanks for sharing the two fine examples of Onin school work. Its remarkable how well preserved the brass work is on both tsuba. Yours truly, David Stiles Yours truly, David Stiles

I see some rust pitting consistent with age disrupting some of the chisel marks. I would say it is likely from the later part of the Edo Period. Having a 2/3 photo close up of the rim would be helpful in confirming age as I will be able to get an idea of the type of iron used in the tsuba. Often much can be determine age wise based on the type of iron used but not always. There were a few schools in the late Edo Period trying to recreate earlier styles by using very heterogeneous iron. Also a complete set of measurements including thickness would be helpful on the tsuba as well. Yours truly, David Stiles

The tsuba is finished with a technique call kesho-tagane which are decorative or ornamental chisel marks. Your tsuba chisel marks are in the common shape of a chrysanthemum. As to what school the tsuba belongs to I am not sure. But I have heard that kesho-tagane could sometimes be used to identify specific tsuba-ko when they were done in characteristic patterns along the seppa-dai and nakago-ana. I hope you find some of this information helpful. Yours truly, David Stiles

Keith's G. point is generally true but before the Edo Period all brass was imported from China and so brass was at times around the same price as gold was in pre Edo Period Japan. This was due to the lack of natural zinc deposits in Japan required to make brass. The Heianjo-zogan, Yoshiro, and Onin school guards with there brass inlays were the tsuba often worn by the wealthy and the upperclass located in and around Kyoto. Yours truly, David Stiles

I would agree completely with your point. At the Hozon level for Nihonto and tosogu the primary goal is authentication following by attribution to a specific person or group of artisans that were active during a specific time period. Anything beyond that is a bit outside the scope of the shinsa. Thanks for the discussion. Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Christian, Nice tsuba Christian! Here is a link: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2010/1010_6055syousai.htm to a Yagyu, Ko-dai tsuba displaying a classic design motif (i.e. moon reflection below ocean waves). In terms of the iron including tekkotsu, visible lamination, patina, and even the technique used to carve the design (i.e. Sukidashi-bori) it is the same as my tsuba. Basically what I am saying is that this Yagyu, Ko-dai tsuba was made in Owari by the Futogoyama school it is only Yagyu, Ko-dai on the shinsa paper because the motif can easily associated with the known (by outsiders myself included) principles of the swordsmanship school. This is going back to a comment I remember hearing at the Florida Token Kai this year when showing photos that basically the Yagyu Shinkage ryu being samurai wouldn't have coins designs on their tsuba. Showing my tsuba to someone who had practiced Yagyu Shinkage Ryu swordsmanship since the mid 1980s he was able to understand motif and how it related to the principles of the swordsmanship school. Could my shinsa result be of the NBTHK shinsa panel just trying to identify the maker and time period of the tsuba without trying to understand the design motif and how it relates to principles of the Yagyu Shinkage swordsmanship school? Either way I am not in anyway upset with the outcome of the shinsa and am really happy but just trying to deepen my understanding. Yours truly, David Stiles

Can across this on a another Japanese sale site: http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2010/1010_6020syousai.htm. The craftsmanship which is a good attribution point looks very similar to my tsuba even when some of the techniques are different. For example the type of "iron bones" along the rim and color of the patina are very similar. I really like Owari tsuba! :D Yours truly, David Stiles

Hi Elliott, Here are some other photos from when I sold my tsuba. When I purchased it in Japan it came with a copper Habaki, seppa that fit it nicely and a collectors note in Japanese. The habaki and seppa looked like it would fit a wakazashi nicely. The collectors note said "Nanban Tsuba", Edo Period" with measurements but I listed it as Meiji or Taisho Period vintage piece as I couldn't confirm the date it was made. Unfortunately I cannot attend the San Francisco Token Kai. The next show I will be at will be next year's Florida Token Kai for the NTHK Shinsa. Thanks for posting some of Bob Haynes writing on your website I enjoy reading them. Yours truly, David Stiles

I would agree Rich T. posted some really nice tsuba. Each one is a very nice example of the specific school. Thanks for sharing. Yours truly, David Stiles

Just wanted to bump this thread up about my write up I am doing for my new Saotome tsuba. I was reading in Sasano's second book "silver dust cover" that he believed the mushroom matsutake in Japanese characterized by rapid overnight growth and lack of roots symbolic. The examples he sits are mostly Ko-Tosho and Ko-Katsushi tsuba from the Kamakura and Muromatchi Periods. As I have been reading a book on Samurai history could this be somewhat of a mild form of social commentary of the Kamakura and later Muromatchi Bafuku? While I would date my tsuba to the late Muromatchi Period the same symbolism could be in play here as the mushroom shape is done in a similar manor as the Ko-Katsushi tsuba examples from the Muromatch Period. Just some questions and food for thought. Yours truly, David Stiles