Matsunoki

Hi Ray I find what you say very interesting. I had no idea such things would still be done today. It’s a bit shocking. I wonder what most members would rather have …..the compromised ubu piece or the “modified version”…with or without the separate original nakago? Where is this being done…Japan or elsewhere? (Obviously in Japan for those with registration problems) Best. Colin.

Another offensive presumption from Jacques. Please excuse me but for over 30 years I dealt in some of the finest Japanese metalwork ever made…..Kano Natsuo. Ozeki, Yamada Motonobu ……….etc etc ( with the worlds top dealers) and my first collection had swords that I try not to remember because it is so painful. (Back then sword knowledge and Information in the UK was very sparse) Sorry if I sound egotistical but I do at least know art and craftmanship and I deeply resent some twit who doesn’t know me publicly telling me I don’t. I do NOT have the necessary knowledge to kantei blades….that’s why I ask for help….and why I offer help if it is sometimes within my sphere of knowledge Dealing with both the people and art of Japan has taught me respect and humility (apart from the above statement!!…sorry!) and the vast majority of people that I’ve encountered on that journey behaved in a similar manner. But there is always one isn’t there?

The why don’t you mind your own damned business if pieces like this don’t interest you? ……and may I remind you what you said when I first posted this sword and compare to what you say now. which is it?

Hi Alex I did actually post this sword on the Forum….it’s an interesting read….lots of “poor” blade images etc -

I wasn’t going to bother but Jacques position, assertions and statements on this is becoming a bit crazy. Firstly on the topic of Nihonto it is virtually impossible to “prove” anything so saying “prove it” is like behaving like a child in the playground. I will actually explain to Jacques why in my “ignorant zero knowledge” state (his words not mine) I believe he is totally wrong. Frankly arguing with two very experienced collectors who have had the sword in hand (that doesn’t include me) just on the basis of my poor photos seems to go against everything that he purports to believe in. This sword was bought by a collector many years (over 30) ago in the USA at a sword event and has been in his collection until I acquired it fairly recently. He had assembled a koshirae for it as it was allegedly originally in wrecked military mounts. Fair bet it was a vet bring back. It is my opinion that this Koto (most likely Nanbokucho) blade was adapted post Meiji restoration for a Kyu gunto mounting which was very common at the time. That very often meant that the nakago gets heavily reworked including shaving both sides of the whole nakago (hence it looks thin) and punching/ drilling more mekugi ana…often quite accompanied by a rather rough suriage crudely and quickly done. There are many similar examples scattered across this forum. It is common to see quite nice swords with wrecked nakago as a consequence. It would be at that time that the hasty yasurimei were re-filed all over……to improve the internals of the tsuka gripping the nakago. But it didn’t stop there. It has DEFINITELY had the machi moved up again later as there are clear bright file marks on both the mune and ha edges of the nakago hence the pronounced machi. The yasurimei were then extended up the nakago again but done even more carelessly? You can see a distinct difference. I believe this was done to remount it in WW2 koshirae ie type 98 I think they are termed. That would probably have required a longer nakago for a secure mounting…..hence the machi-okuri. The mekugi- ana are of different sizes ….some definitely punched (they have a taper) and some maybe drilled. The hamon clearly continues unaltered into the nakago but disappears into the rough yasurimei. None of this is unusual, many swords went through some rough treatment as they progressed through various post Meiji mountings. I do not believe ANY of the nakago is original If anything that I have just said is implausible, unlikely or just plain stupid please correct me. All the best folks. Colin

Which bit of “game over” didn’t you understand?

My opinion doesn’t count in your eyes. Game over.

Thank you John. It was a pleasure to show you the sword. all the best Colin

You need some spectacles mate and a better memory. The sword had definitely been shortened recently…..you have heard of World War 2 haven’t you?..so hamachi tells us nothing. The nakago has been greatly reduced and reworked…it tells us nothing except that it is sad nakago now. You totally ignored my request to tell me the features of the blade that made it 20thC when others all thought Koto, probably (late) Nanbokucho having had the sword in hand as well as images. Of course the world is wrong and Jacques is right yes?

Hi Paz could be either. I’ve had Royal Mail and Parcelforce from USA stick the usps tracking number into parcelforce tracking…..it may pick it up and sometimes gives you the UK version. It’s a bit hit and miss though ive also used this “universal tracking site” that sometimes helps and may give you the uk handler….also hit and miss!! https://parcelsapp.com/en/tracking/Rh002822494us Good luck…..nerves of steel needed colin

……so, all the scientists (like you) who studied the moon and all the planets you mention for many many years well before we actually got to any of them were not studying at all? What were they doing? Knitting? My argument is not a straw man…..it is fact (you like facts)……you can study something without being there or holding it. ….and yet you were perfectly happy to trash my possible Nanbokucho sword without holding it in your hands but using only my poor images. I believe 20th century was your call. Based on that it is difficult to believe that you know that much at all. Brian and Peter ……sorry for being so far off topic…..please don’t ban me.

Perfect. Brilliant idea. Just like some of the old collections….Tomkinson etc.

We don’t know anything about it because we can’t see it……but we can see Nihonto….in images and in hand. Your argument is invalid. That doesn’t stop you discussing the subject does it? So why insult others (as you did me) who also lack “expertise”? …..see above……if your ignorance is greater than your knowledge does that mean what you say is worthless? A teacher does not have to sit next to you physically or on a 121 basis for us to learn something. This forum has many very helpful and kind “teachers” who sacrifice their time to share their knowledge and opinions in a helpful and constructive way. And you can study for a lifetime……but on the subject of Nihonto, so much of it will always remain a matter of opinion, albeit some opinions are worth more than others.

Morning Ian I had this problem on my Toshiba laptop. I had installed a wireless mouse and after a time I got the jumping around into existing text issue. I was told it was a “conflict” between the wireless mouse and the laptop touchpad. To resolve it I was told to press the Fn key and F9 simultaneously and it stopped it for that session. Sometimes I had to hold down the Fn key and press F9 twice quickly. That did the trick but the problem has never gone away…..I have to do it every time I use that laptop. Dammed annoying. Good luck!

Hi again Paul I think there are several reasons for this. I’m not sure what the age profile of the UK Token is……but I bet it’s slanted towards the “mature“ members? This in itself is a factor maybe? I have just joined the Token, not because I will attend meetings regularly but because I want to support the organisation and the efforts it is making. Organising anything can be a thankless task in the face of what seems like member apathy. However, I think a massive reason for non attendance in the UK is the potential problems we may encounter if, for whatever reason, we encounter our law enforcement officers whilst carrying or transporting a sword….especially a Samurai sword. Being arrested is a real possibility when our police don’t even know or understand the law that they are supposed to uphold. Yes we can show them our membership card etc but it’s still an unpleasant potential experience. Plus many of us live in the middle of nowhere….like I do….which brings its own logistical problems. Another possibility is that UK Token Society is for “antique” Japanese swords which seems to exclude gendaito, all military swords and Shinsakuto. All 3 of those categories are hot topics now…..would their inclusion swell membership and attendance? On this forum the interest in military etc is massive….and that includes me. Just a few ramblings. all the best Colin

I think it also depends on why we collect and what “study” actually means. I collect because I “enjoy” owning and examining these lethally fascinating objects. Not just the blade but the complete sword and the history that accompanies it….(providing koshirae are not modern or tampered with). I will never achieve the level of detailed expertise that many on this forum have…..but I don’t want to. I know a good blade from a bad one, nice fittings from modest ones and that’s good enough for my old brain. Blades are such a complex subject much of it is a matter of opinion anyway. It is nice to have expert opinions on a piece…..that’s why I’m here…..that’s why I post my modest items……for opinions and others enjoyment (hopefully!) Group meetings bring difficulties…..often people decide they simply “can’t be bothered”….(that’s me for sure)…or they feel left out, or time limits what can be achieved….lots of problems can arise to put us off. One to one discussions are usually more enjoyable in my experience. There are many ways to increase knowledge nowadays…..internet etc etc…..pick those that you ENJOY …….and Jacques…..you can study the moon without going there, you can study swords without going to Japan.

Damn, didn’t think of that. Let us all know how you get on.

If we are truly worried about who gets to own our possessions, who will take care of them, will they achieve the price they deserve etc etc then really the best person to be in control of that process is you. You can keep one or two favourite or treasured pieces but then rest assured that you have done the right thing for the remainder. Your heirs then only have a very few things to handle and you can leave precise instructions. ……and strange as it may seem, you may not miss them that much ……possessions can be an albatross around our necks sometimes My wife and I have recently sold our entire netsuke collection and Meiji metalwork collection and cloisonné collection and Satsuma collection. Honestly- it was a cathartic experience and we just kept a few modest sentimental things.……and truthfully, we don’t miss any of it although we have loved it for many many years. We sold the items, not the memories. ……trouble is now I’m back collecting swords again. Worth thinking about? Colin.

I’ve also pondered this as years advance. Luckily my wife is pretty clued up (assuming I leave first) but basically there are a few options - 1. leave it all in a mess and don’t worry about it. It’ll get sorted by someone somehow. or MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS FULLY RECORDED AND LABELLED WITH ALL DESCRIPTIONS AND RELEVANT INFO. USE A SPREADSHEET AS WELL IF POSSIBLE….AND THEN……. 2. Sell to friends/fellow collectors. This will probably get your heirs the best price but they won’t buy everything and that means leftovers have to be dealt with. Also selling the best bits like this will make the collection less attractive to auctioneers. 3. try and sell to dealers….but see Bruce’s comments above. You won’t get full market value (but how do you determine what that is anyway?) BUT you might still get more than option 4 given the auctioneers fees 4. Get a qualified arms auctioneer in and let them handle it all but negotiate a good deal re their sellers commission. In the UK you’d get them down to 5% especially if you allow stuff to be sold with no reserve which is risky but then the market will decide anyway. The internet and online sales have made it virtually impossible for dealers or “groups of friends” to “ring“ the items. 5. Sell everything while still alive, buy a Porsche, an Aston Martin and a Lamborghini and have a blast for a time.….. Just a few thoughts…..we don’t own anything really do we? Colin

Hi again Mike Not all “pressings” are double sided. They made some highly convincing ones of traditional form where the back plate is a correct solid one but the top plate is “pressed and worked” from a thin sheet and then often multipatinated to resemble mixed metal. Some are scarily convincing ….I’ve had ones with lovely crayfish and lobsters which could easily fool us if we didn’t look closely. They also “fake” the shakudo nanako effect……yours could be such a piece. I’ve also seen the “fakes” signed…just to add to the issue. However there is a way to tell. The faceplate of the pressings is of necessity a thin sheet of alloy. If you insert your fingernail into the kogatana slot you can feel where it has been rolled over to create the effect of a thicker plate on the leading edge where the blade tang is inserted ie your nail will catch on the ridge of the faceplate. “Real” kozuka have a thick top plate often with a smooth interior surface. Not sure if that explanation makes sense! Try it and see! I believe these deceptions are called shiremono…..but someone may correct me on spelling! All good fun! Colin

Hello Mike I’ve handled many kozuka but have never encountered this before. It would be very unusual to see a shakudo nanako plate inlaid with iron….normally other soft metals are used. So, what is it? I suspect a bit of a bodge job…..but possibly a Japanese bodge job. Is the kozuka nanako body one of the pressed ones made to put on cutlery sets etc for sale to the Gaijin?

I really need to update my 40 year old library a bit more don’t I ??🙂 Thanks John.

Thanks John, Jussi mentioned a possible 8th generation (see above) who held the title as well. Greatly appreciate your useful input. Its a whittling down process that will probably end up as gimei……but I like the sword whatever.

Are you saying the red flags are for all 8 generations or just 1st generation? I believe Mei styles vary and school went through to end of Bakumatsu period. Sword has shinshinto feel.