Matsunoki
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Everything posted by Matsunoki
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No, just trying to stay factually accurate. Bye then.
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Good job I’m not as sensitive (or rude) as you obviously are. I’m guessing yours would be a rather short list yes? I don’t think the artists I mentioned are s**t but you possibly haven’t heard of half of them?
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You just keep on digging Franco. Now you introduce an air of condescension into the thread. Again I suggest you re-read the thread.……and you will see they are not “my tsuba” but a very apt and suitable Lot from Bonhams that perfectly illustrated the actual subject under discussion……which most who took part in found useful.
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OK Franco…..tell me which of these artists you have actually owned and/or paid huge money to get restored by the best restorers in the world….. Kano Natsuo Unno Shomin Ozeki Yamada Motonobu Hasegawa Issei Iwamoto Konkan Kajima Ikkoku Suzuki Chokichi Kanazawa Doki Kaisha Sano Takachika …..and many more …..I’m talking Khalili quality metalwork, the very finest ever made. No, avoid the bottom and work your way up. Is that so difficult to understand. Now just go away and annoy someone else. You are making yourself look deliberately obtuse.
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Are you so blind that you cannot see that that alone is a valuable lesson? If it helps anyone to avoid buying poor quality that has to be a good thing…..Yes or No will do. Again you entirely miss the point. It was never the intention to illustrate the finest pieces…..it was exactly the opposite….to illustrate the poorer pieces thus trying to give a few warnings/pointers to watch out for. I suggest you actually carefully re read the thread, and then go argue with someone else because you’re in a hole and still digging.
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Many thanks. Sounds like you might have had a rough time……Hope things have improved and welcome back.
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Good for you. Shame your knowledge couldn’t pick out the better quality one from the two Nagoya Mono. Everyone else got the drift of my light hearted teaser but you choose to complicate it. That was not what I said nor what I asked. Again that is not what I asked. I did not ask to rank them, just pick the best one and it’s pretty obvious when you know what to look for. By having a thorough understanding of the different methods of construction, the alloys used and by handling all qualities from Natsuo to Nagoya mono…..everything in between. The difference between overlay and inlay and the different methods of inlay. The different methods of texture and patina creation. The difference between cast vs cast and hand finished vs fully hand carved from scratch etc etc etc Please be serious. In my opinion you have just decided to be bloody minded and try to spoil a simple attempt to illustrate the difference between Nagoya Mono and the real deal. I posed the question because many are getting caught out by not being able to differentiate. PLEASE go and argue with someone else or start your own thread. I await that with interest.
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Dan…..use your eyes. Whoever told you that😳? Sorry, but it’s a Nagoya Mono ie Mr Suzuki. It is a poorly cast and somewhat abused example. It was probably sold with no gold wash…just plain black (many were)If you cannot see that after this thread ……..
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Why?
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Please do not regard me as a tsuba expert. My knowledge lies mostly in Japanese Metalwork (and other arts) and I’m hopeless on things like tsuba schools, signatures etc. My approach has always been to understand and recognise quality irrespective of who made it. If you can recognise quality (more relevant to kinko work) then you’ve cracked it. Vital learning point (imo) ….quality can never lie.
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No, it’s not a trick question! Simply an illustration of how we can look but not actually see unless we know what we are looking at. Someone has paid a lot of money for 2 Mr Suzuki, albeit very flashy ones. The left hand one is head and shoulders above the other two but it is not immedi obvious is it? https://www.bonhams....ions/14043/lot/6099/ Not necessary if you know what to look for.
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A lighthearted question…..you can only buy one of these tsuba…..which one would you chose if quality was your criteria…?
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That depends on whether you want to learn or not. Being able to tell poor from average from above average from fantastic is surely essential IF you want to build a quality collection. If you just want a lot of tsuba then fine, buy anything. (and don’t believe everything you see and read in museums. Half the time they don’t know either)
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Mr Suzuki are NOT repro or fake in the modern sense. They are tsuba made more cheaply and quickly than high class pieces made by higher end craftsmen. Some exhibit definite signs of being mounted and I’ve had at least one sword with one on that was untouched from Samurai times. However it is obvious that they appealed to the gaijin present in Japan in late Edo and Meiji and Mr Suzuki saw an opportunity to make some money…..and made a lot of them in large multiples. In my mind that does not make them fake, just cheap and quick. By developing an eye and increasing your experience so that you can tell the difference. Handle as many as you can and learn by comparison
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Why not just do some research on auction websites? Bonhams is a good place to start….you’ll find hundreds of swords together with sold prices.
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Sam, Without checking I think that butterfly one is possibly mine!. I bought it knowing what it was and I think I put it on the Nagoya thread! I think we would really need all the pieces in hand to make detailed comparisons but once you get your eye in Mr Suzuki becomes a bit more obvious although they can look really impressive…..eg !!!….caveat emptor! https://www.ebay.com/itm/296961155764
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Giving a nihonto some use ?
Matsunoki replied to Nicolas Maestre's topic in General Nihonto Related Discussion
It’s also asking for trouble. Dry firing is the easiest way to snap springs and even snap the necks of the cocks. Why risk it? -
Purely for quality comparison…..compare the nanako and the precision of finishing the inlay etc. This is also a small Tanto tsuba. Comparisons are always the best way to improve our “eyes”. (Imo!)
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Just some passing thoughts…..the lacquer has been applied to the ura (back) of the tsuba and I wonder if that is a later addition to a previously plain older iron tsuba. The theme might be Kiku-Sui (chrysanthemum and water) One of the petals appears plugged in the image with the white background. What has happened there? There appears to be traces of powdered gold lacquer in some the deeper recesses on both omote and ura. I’m almost certainly wrong but I think maybe an old tsuba that has been jazzed up a bit later in its (long?) life. Looking forward to greater expertise🙂
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Edward, these are still antiques. They are not fakes in the modern sense. They are tsuba made to look like much more expensive and time consuming pieces but are made using much cheaper and quicker methods and materials. They are often cast in an alloy and then use multipatination techniques to replicate the effect of true mixed metal inlays. It is very clever but means multiples of the same tsuba (sometimes with small changes) can be knocked out rapidly but look very impressive. I would guess second half of 19thC possibly into Meiji but I don’t think anyone really knows for absolute sure the exact dates or exact location of manufacture. Id hope others will chime in especially Dale.
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Hi Sam, well the extra images pretty much convince me that we are talking about Nagoya mono pieces here. The alloy colour does not look like shakudo and you can now see where the mon has been soldered on rather than inlaid. I at first thought that they were cast in one piece with the tsuba but now that looks like a rough solder jobbie. Also the way the patina is wearing and it’s colour does not look “right”….difficult to explain. When in pristine condition the output from this outfit can look really very smart……but up close tells a different story. One of these I think even looks like it’s been mounted…..I have seen others actually on swords so they were definitely mounted at times. I am no expert in particular schools but I think their output is often referred to as Mino Goto style or Mino school style. The word style is the important word! ….but still just my opinion so don’t take it as gospel! Best. Colin.
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I’m not looking to spoil things folks - honestly, but I suspect Mr Suzuki and his Nagoya mono workshop may have had a hand in all of these. The mon appear cast in, but not inlaid and just the way the Tagane ato are done….all very similar. If that is the case they are not shakudo but probably an alloy that can be patinated to resemble shakudo with a thin gold wash applied to the mon. Just a hunch. @Spartancrest……any views?
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Incredibly rare kai-gunto being auctioned in France!
Matsunoki replied to Yukihiro's topic in Military Swords of Japan
Yes I agree totally John but 40+ years inside the Antique trade as a dealer, restorer and collector has rather “case hardened” me to the nasty reality of it all. Just about every single category of art, antique, antiquity or any collectable is now riddled with fakery and fraud of really frightening sophistication. Pick any subject and it will have a dirty underbelly involving global brands even. There seems no room anymore for “fair play”……it’s like the wild west out there……and I share your irritation (especially as I’ve been caught heavily in the past (Chinese porcelain)). -
Incredibly rare kai-gunto being auctioned in France!
Matsunoki replied to Yukihiro's topic in Military Swords of Japan
I’m sure the Auctioneers (I’m not familiar with this one) will have their rear end well protected by “terms and conditions” ….usually shifting the onus onto the buyers to prove otherwise. But, going back to Ancient Rome, the principle of “caveat emptor” has been the over-riding guidance for any buyer of anything and it’s wise to take heed. I agree it’s nasty, all fraud is and nowadays you almost start from the premise that all is not what you hope it is. The modern world…… Words of my long gone grandfather from over 60 years ago suggest was it always thus…..”believe nothing you hear and half what your see”….and it’s got a lot worse since then. Even the major Auction Houses have horrendous skeletons they hope will never emerge from the closet. -
With Sothebys, their pricing has absolutely nothing to do with any perceived “market value”. Their target market is not sword collectors. Their target market is rich investors with no knowledge who are prepared to buy whatever their Sothebys “personal shopper” tells them is “really good”
