reinhard

Don't worry. I got his point. I wonder if anybody will get mine. reinhard

This "tradition" is/was not limited to the US. Anyway I see a problem in this statement and any future discussion about "diamonds in the rough" on NMB in general. 99.9% of the "tired junk" is actually....tired junk. Nursing false hopes is not exactly what this board is in need for. A katana found on eBay, saiba, with a miserable gimei in the wrong place, stored in a rattling assembly of lousy fittings should be accepted for what it is: tired junk. Nothing to learn from. Bad mistake. A lesson for the future. Telling people they might be sitting on a hidden treasure is not exactly helpful in a spot like this. They should get fair advice here, but making them defend their trash against all well-meant advice is not exactly helpful. BTW Chris, you are wrong by classifying "most Western collectors" into "inexperienced" and "less-inexperienced". Who are you to tell anyway? In the West it is the same as in Japan by now. There are knowing, "experienced" collectors /dealers and there are ignorants and there are many people in between. reinhard

Eric, it's difficult to tell by your pictures, but what you are presenting looks exactly like sumigane, which is typical for some of the Aoe work. It looks like plain, dark spots distributed here and there. Jifu(-utsuri) is not plain and is evenly distributed all over the blade. (see also "The connaisseur's book..." by Nagayama Kokan, p.86/87). It is most often seen on very old blades like the ones from Ko-Hoki, Ko-Bizen and some others. It looks different. In general: Phenomenons like these (yubashiri, tobiyaki and all sorts of utsuri in particular) need to be studied in hand. Most pics are just confusing and no help at all; some of them are even cementing errors. reinhard

Dai and Sho have two different owners by now. Both of them high-end dealers in Japan. reinhard

Welcome to field one. That's one of the strange sides of the internet. Although its memory seems to be beyond limits, most people don't seem to care about messages from yesterday. reinhard

Harry, this is going to be tricky and it's the point where I don't understand this paper: Nio school was founded in Suwo province at a very early time (blades from mid-Kamakura period are extant). It continued existing into Muromachi period and during its later stage there were Kaji signing by the name of KIYOSHIGE. Their mei were quite different from the one in question though. At a much later time, during Edo period, other smiths working in Nagato, Choshu province, also signed their work by the name of KIYOSHIGE. They signed their works "Choshu (no) Ju Fujiwara (no) KIYOSHIGE" and the like. Your sword belongs to this group. First generation is said to have worked there around Kambun era (1661-1672). Little is known about them. Their best-documented kaji worked around Horeki era (1751-1764). First generation KIYOSHIGE in Nagato might claimed to be a descendant of Nio school in Suwo province. Nevertheless he was working in another province (Choshu). Actually he's not much more than a name in old records by now. "Officially" attributing (t)his work to "Nio KIYOSHIGE" (which sounds definitely more interesting than just saying he was a no-name smith during Edo period) seems a little....manipulative... to me. Enjoy your research and correct me, if I'm wrong reinhard

Will you tell us what sword it is you are talking about, please? Reinhard

Good job, Harry. As for your red boxes: Row 1 starts with DAI (for numeral classification), followed by the numbers 4 1 9 and GO ("number"). Then SHUBETSU ("classification") and at the end it just says WAKIZASHI. Row 3 starts with SUMPO ("measure, dimension"). The next red box includes a formal, non-standard kanji for the number 1. Row 4 starts with TOKUCHO ("distinctive features"). The left side following reads: NAKAGO, ICHI ("one") used in documents and KIRI written in hiragana. Row 5 says SUWO (no) KUNI KAMBUN (era) KEI ("time"). regards reinhard

Yury, you better stay in your sandbox, i.e. in the "for sale and trade" section. There's nothing wrong with your commercial interests, but spreading your silly stuff all over the board will eventually provoke reactions you don't want to be confronted with. Mine for example. reinhard

I'm sharing Mr Helm's sense of humour in this particular case. reinhard

Can somebody please translate this for me? reinhard

That's no big secret. Read English Token Bijutsu magazine vol.7, page 29, published in 1980. It's news from the day before yesterday. And guess what? There are false Juyo Bijutsuhin papers as well, dating from the same time. They are easy to detect (if you know what to look for) and there's not even a need to cross-check with the nado zufu. reinhard

Ford, thanks for finally presenting your detailed view of Goto ICHIJO and Kinko during bakumatsu and later times. At least that's something to start with and much better than just mumbling of "some circles". Moreover, and this is certainly not addressed to Ford, top-level artistry needs to be studied IN HAND. What is true for good blades is true for good tosogu as well. You haven't seen the real thing until you saw the object with your own eyes. There is no such thing as a "virtual appreciation" of masterpieces when it comes to real art. Colors changing when light and angles of view change, supreme qualitiy of surface finish and many other features, most of the magic actually, can't be seen in pics. You may study hi-res pics of masterpieces until your eyes pop out. Still you haven't seen anything yet. reinhard

No surprise at all. "Some circles" cultivating their whimsical opinions can be found easily all over the world. So what? reinhard

What exactly do you mean by "the best"? I must admit "Dojigiri YASUTSUNA" and "Mikatsuki MUNECHIKA" were not for sale this year, but apart from national treasures on a Tenka Goken-level the selection of MeiTo at DTI was quite impressive, don't you think? I remember four top-class KIYOMARO blades and one of the most beautiful NAGAMITSU tachi (JuBi) at Eiwado's shop. Taibundo's swords were of no lesser qualities. I remember handling a very rare zaimei Ko-Aoe KORESUKE tachi with beautiful mei and one of the best Ayanokoji blades in existence there. Bob Hughes offered a beautiful Rai KUNITSUGU with outstanding koshirae. Not to speak of the marvellous top-class swords offered by Sokendo, Seikado, Seikeido...So what are you talking about exactly and which ones are these "little shops" you are talking about? True, not all treasures were displayed on tables at DTI, but compared to the level of most discussions on NMB and compared to sword-shows elsewhere, especially outside of Japan, DTI was and is a most impressive experience. reinhard

I heard he is a Kami by now. Can't remember the shrine where he is worshipped though. Allow me to go outside for a laugh, if you please. So much for NTHK promo on NMB. reinhard

This is getting slightly off-topic, but so what. Don't worry, Henry, the tsuba arrived sound and safe at the other end of the world and you will be the first in line to be asked in case I will ever want to separate from it. BTW It made me reconsider the standing of Shonai Kinko compared to schools with higher reputation. It was a pleasure meeting you and other familiar faces at DTI again, as well as seeing the real faces behind the avatars of the French Connection (Jean & Jacques and some others). NMB as a virtual playground is quite nice, but it can't compete with real life. Wish to see you next year again reinhard aka Popeye Doyle

Got some "irresistible" offers from Guido's mail account as well. Must be a Hotmail thing (no wonder). Get yourself a reasonable mail-account, Guido! BTW, it was a pleasure meeting you again at DTI. reinhard

It's not what a naughty, little Frenchman is thinking. The poor guy is looking for his purse. Too many temptations at DTI, you know. Bob's trousers accidentally looked like the mysterious, black hole where all his money went. reinhard

Where's Mr.Hallam when you REALLY need him? reinhard

Show us the Juyo example, if you please. reinhard

Quoting from the commemorative centenary edition of "Hawley's Japanese swordsmiths": "Six months went by, then a year. Finally one blade surfaced at a gun show on the East Coast. It had been bought by a collector who upon further examination once home, determined it to be one listed as stolen from the Hawley collection. The collector returned the sword to Willis gratis. Then...nothing. Willis was devastated but he was also disgusted that collectors would collect so dishonorably." Things haven't changed yet. I'm talking of the collection of swords of the late Mr. Indlekofer in Riehen, Switzerland. They were stolen in April 2003. All these swords are well-documented Juyo Token and they are still out there somewhere. reinhard

That's it. reinhard

I forgot to mention: What does it mean when the extension of the shinogi into the nakago looks like this? See the area around "Murasame". It's a textbook-example of .....? reinhard

Yimu, let's waste some more time. The mei on your sword looks like a pretty poor promo-stunt, but I won't tell you why. You have to find out by yourself since you seem to know enough about Japanese swords already. As you probably know, the Ikoma in Sanuki possessed some very fine and famous swords and quite a few were marked with "Ikoma Sanuki-no-Kami". Here's a pic of a kinzogan-mei on a real sword from the Ikoma-collection (presently in the possession of the Kurogawa institute). Can you see the difference? reinhard