Nihontocollector752

RJT blades paper at NBTHK Hozon, well worth having this professionally restored as long as there is no deep pitting. Please don't use chemicals to clean it. Congratulations on this blade, save the nakago too.

Isn't "cheap " or "expensive " simply a matter of budget...or is this the lesson Rivkin?

In my expert opinion this is a hidden treasure, get it polished and shinsa in Japan (it's what you want to hear right)

You could submit the sword in it's current condition, in Japan without issue and with Koshirae (this is not a caveat)

Setting sights on Bungo in the Edo period may be a little off. They also moved into soshu style and were capable of any number of variations from Bizen to Mino, i have seen massive Bungo blades from edo in elaborate Hitatsura. What features (for notable study) stand out to you as Bungo Edo?

Interesting and thanks!

Yeah well with all these lists i think a few mentioned Masamune so deliberation over changing names is just void. Fact is there are path makers and (as my list is Heian to modern) those smiths have earned their names. People forget so much how a name is everything in Japan, how a student takes their name from their teacher and so on and so on, Asia is like that, you EARN a name. Suggesting otherwise is just what the west sees as convenience.

Muromachi Yamato/Tegai maybe

Especially if you only see the world with blinkers

Look (with thou spectacles) i have noooo idea why people don't spend a whole lot more time learning that Nakago are as important as kissaki and everrrrything in-between. The nakago on this sword is cut straight at the bottom first sign of shortening (for the record i placed this as Edo Shinto, no reference to Kanbun, but regardless) this is an Edo Shinto blade that has a nakago cut straight. There was an artistic expression on the entirety of swords at this time so you can literally look at the nakago of a shinto blade and isolate (very close, perhaps not exactly) what school it comes from, so why cut it down? Why have it unsigned, most shinto blades are signed and 98% of the best shinto blades have a single mekugi ana this has 3 swiss cheese style ones indicative of an attempted passing for an older sword. However the jigane and hamon have zero affiliation with koto blades.

I think the smarter road is to ask questions with pictures before you buy, will save you a lot of heartache

Depends where you're playing, juyo and tokuju are much harder

I think a few things should be mentioned as to the Edo Shinto attribution (light attribution) but because the jigane and hamon are very Edo Shinto. The Nakago here has been redone and so it is easier to mess with the geomety and try to pass it off as older, shame about those mekugi ana...swiss cheese style so trying to replicate a much much older blade.

The problem when speaking to people with 15 years of collecting experience ( @Alex A ) is that in 15 years they have basically looked at swords and still see only one thing. Very basic mentality and difficult to change the opinion, show them a beautiful bonzai and then they light up. Everyone has their own boat and different things rock them. To say Horimono are simple to make without having seen one made, to not have seen the Gassan in the Metropolitan Museum and not be awe struck or to never have owned, held and appreciated an Awataguchi Tadatsuna Nidai but comment so easily is a failing in 15 years of learning or "collecting"

What about Horimono, exotic hamon...i think each medium needs to be appreciated for what it is. I don't think the comparison should be painted art vs metal work but artistic traits and significance as to what makes any one artwork the top rather than its counterpart Pictures of examples would be fun though

Anything other than traditional polishing is considered taboo

Take away from this thread is avoid getting anything identified or appraised in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts

I think the fact that that swords, Japanese or otherwise were established as good weapons well before a millennium ago, so what's your point exactly. With the advent of steel bimetallic blades being used worldwide we shouldn't simply say yeah these are considred the best because they performed the best, any sword in the right hands will be a great platform for battle, it's no good having a fresh Masamune Tachi that sits on a wall rather than on a daimyos hip. Fact is these are considered the best because the men who made them had done what only a handful of craftsmen before them managed to do, make excellent, flawless, dependable blades. They unlocked the chemical, mechanical and artful aspects of their medium. You can have the same appreciation for any bimetallic blade of such age made by masters of their given geography. The statistical approach works well because it really does show what the Japanese considered worthy of preserving, they are preserving the spirit of the men who made these swords and statistically the results give good all rounded collectors viable pathways of exploration, appreciation and specialisation.

That is an amazing round up! Thanks for the data, this is very special information especially pertaining to this threads subject and i hope NMB appreciates this. If one might ask for one more favour from the books you used to extrapolate (not being lazy, i really haven't the books or the language skills to do this sort of list) but are Ko-hoki on the Kokuho or JuBu? Sorry for making more work

I feel strongly on signed swords as well, as it is with any art a signed piece is always a very coveted item because it is certainly by that artisit and marks a great starting point. With swords that are mumei and attributed to a tradition or school, this is acceptable but when they start attributing mumei swords to smiths it should be looked at as a mark of quality and craftsmanship rather than saying, definitively by this "person". On what makes something a museum grade (Japanese museum grade for the Nihonto subject) i think it is about provenance, yes, historical significance, yes. But most importantly, it is the fact that this smith was the first to establish a critical archetypal style, in the art world perhaps refered to as their own genre, medium, etc. When you stand infront of the Sanjo Munechika Mikazuki you'll very quickly see why Sanjo Munechika is a definative top smith. Many smiths came after him in Yamashiro and they have thier archetypal primary and the rest follow suit. Bizen is the best, by far and has many archetypal primary smiths that paved the road for so many other styles after them. Similar to Ko-hoki, the Soshu smiths were influenced by Bizen, Yamashiro, Ko-hoki, etc so you cannot just jump to a mumei Norishige Katana without mentioning his influences first. Then there were trail blazers in every time period Shinto had some, Shinshinto very few but if they were great then they were the absolute best. And so on and so on. But as with all arts we should top 10 the primary, the root and go from there (just my opinion). And when establishing the root, then pick the swords that are confirmed by them and add on what makes them even greater, provenance, historical significance, etc. We all to often jump straight to monetary value. This is not always true. You can have a Hozon Kiyomaro, in bad shape and flawed, it will still command a heavy price tag, unreasonably. But, that is just the way the market is for Kiyomaro. And if you have a juyo Kiyomaro in his pinacle, archetypal style with no flaws, with provenance and history you need to be ready to pay the same price as some jubi or better. But why is the same not true of his older brother? Some would argue his brother was equally skilled and was after all said to have trained in smithing before Kiyomaro and indeed taught him. But Kiyomaro emulated the Soshu masters, primarily Chogi and surpassed their skill (so it is said). Legends go on and on. It is easy to make a top ten list if your mental capacity can identify every famous sword over a millennium, quantify them, give them attributes and say why. But we cannot because we are not computers that retain all that knowledge and even if we put our vast NMB knowledge together, we are going to end up arguing about the top ten till the end of time, and, we will still be wrong according to the Japanese schools of thought on this subject. Masamunes top ten have changed over time, moving Norishige and Yukimitsu to be his contemporary counterparts rather than his students, etc. Who was Masamune anyway and like Shintogo, didn't he specialise in just Tanto primarily and did he really only have 10 students in his Kaji....really only 10? I think not Who taught Masamune? This is documented as Shintogo Kunimitsu and before him Kunimune and Sukezane, influences from Ko-hoki and it is what Soshu did with this influence that put them on the map, a new style, medium, genre. You want to do a top ten list and exclude Ko- Hoki Yasatsuna? The primary of Japanese swords themselves, it cannot be a top ten list then surely. The Japanese can do us one better, they literally have a top 5 list, lol, The Tenka Goken or 5 swords under Heaven. Is Masamune on that list? No, but Yamashiro smiths are, Ko-Hoki, Aoe are, Miike which we simply dismiss from our western lists. But not all of these are 5 under heaven because of their price (priceless i should say) or skilled craftsmanship but a complete all around museum grade definition (Japanese museum). Can you attain a Ko-Hoki Yasatsuna, absolutely you can if you can afford it, if it is allowed to leave Japan and if you know someone who can get it for you. Same for Sanjo, Aoe, etc. Will they be the 5 under Heaven, NO! Money should not have anything to do with this list of Top Ten. Unless the ask was Top Ten most expensive Japanese swords, we can definately do that list. The Sanchomo would be on there immediately. Don't talk about Juyo this and Juyo that, there are Hosho Juyo for 45K and Hosho Juyo for 70K plus. There are Kunimune Juyo for 50K and for 200K plus. KIYOMARO JUYO for close to 1Million USD plus. And Hozon for 35k plus. Stop saying buy the sword not the smith, to attain this you must have seen every consecutive sword by this smith and pinpoint the primary and the archetype and the pinacle and then look into your bank account and decide to commit or walk away, this is true of a koto or Gunto. Just say, buy the best you can afford and go from there.

Again No, but they sound lovely. I think the OP should set out the criteria they are looking for and not leave it open ended, that would be the best starting point. OP please give us a few criteria to adhere to?

No. But it sounds lovely.

Awataguchi didn't make my list because i simply have little experience with them but i have seen them in Japan in museums and smiths like Hisakuni are generally fought over by top collections, my list was also based around signed examples and i think Awataguchi has many so confirmation on quality by a certain smith is possible, less so with Soshu. Awataguchi though is so perfect it's boring because you see it and you know, its just immediately identifiable. Personally i think Bizen Kagemitsu made Tanto as perfect as Awataguchi Yoshimitsu but now we are comparing Bizen and Yamashiro Tanto so @paulb why are they great in your opinion, and you must have an opinion on both regardless of what you've seen because they are known greats. *edit Bizen Kagemitsu

This is not really applicable because a single smith had a peak in their career that defines them for greatness. Kiyomaro has excellent pieces and he has very, very bad pieces. Aoe has no middle ground there are either very good Aoe or very bad Aoe. Soshu is largely mumei so Amazing Soshu in certain styles gets placed to Shizu and incredible goes to Shizu... So where to go from here?