shan

Hi all, Firstly the shinogi is correct and the images make it look wavy and "untrue",Its the way the light playes on the lines. However,as the blade shinogi goes into the nakago there is a "change" on both sides. This was there when i bought it and i thought it looked a little odd then as well.That was when it was in (out of) Old Japanese polish. The lines on the blade are good as it goes to the nakago it waves once a little and on both sides in exactly the same place. I do prefer sashikomi but as sugested here on this forum,i let the polisher decide. I have no idea what the dark lines are Jacques thats why i asked,is it Ashi? Its not shinae in the steel of that i am sure but it has quite a lot of them within the hamon. I am sure this is not as good as some blades that are Japanese polished Nick,but then some Japanese polishes are quite bad anyway i hear stories all the time about unscrupulous polishers in Japan ruining blades by giving them to students. I will take some lightbox images and see if we can get to the bottom of this. It i agree has one or two small elaments that i think need to be redone.The mune has a sharp feel to the lower RHS edge (a lip) and the Yokote on one side is not very clean. Jacques,The smith changed the Hamon style when he got tot the Yokote area,is that why you say the hamon is discontinuous? which side do you refer to? Ford,I will Improve the photo`s,give me until tonight. thanks Shan

Thanks for responding. No its not a casting its the pattern and has little stars either side of the mimi "seam". It does not appear to be cast,its a soft silver metal.Its 4mm thick but its mimi is turned up at the edges so i guess looks thicker than it actually is.Think its a tourist Tsuba? Sadly there was no Kashira with the Fuchi. think it was good quality once or again an average piece? I wouldnt mind finding a Kashira of similar make and theme. regards shan

Interesting item and brief history. I have seen the story before and heard it on the forum as well. 14th to 16th century osoraku-zukuri tanto were made by Hizen Tadayoshi,Umetada Myoju and a few others. in the early 19th century it was again popular among certain smiths and was favored by Kiyomaro,Masao, Kurihara Nobuhide,Kiyondo,and Saneo.Kurihara Nobuhide also made them at the end of the 19th century. I have read this somwhere. regards Shan

Just as a point really,and not disageeing with you Jon,what you say makes scense. "1. The metal of which it is made does not have the rich, deep patination of good shakudō. It appears to have some brownish patches, and may even not be true shakudō, but rather a copper alloy with black pigment applied to it. 2. The quality of the nanako is poor. If you compare it with several of the good examples that have recently been posted you will see that the granules are irregularly spaced and mal-aligned, and that many of them are incomplete circles." 1. the area that looks different with Brownish patches is something a little like Limescale,It can be scratched of with a bit of bamboo but its not easy as its stubborn and i am worried of damaging the material underneath it. 2.The area of Nanako you see is in fact an old repair as the kashira has been split from that area right across to the RH Side shitodome (as viewed inlarge image of Kashira)and beyond.underneath there is a copper "solder" that reinforces the repair. I will take images if it is of any importance. 3. If the character and Tree is crudely depicted then there is nothing i can do about that.I will look more closely in future. I as always am gratful for the help offered. regards shan

Hello, If you would be so kind as to elaborate or give reasons for your statements gentlemen, we Novices could at least understand where your seeing something that either should not be there and is...or should be there and is not. :? Then perhaps an image of what exactly you are using as a point of reference. I am not dissagreeing with you but i would love to know whats wrong with the polish. Have a look at the shinogi Zukuri Tanto as well i posted and give an opinion on that one please. I just want to know. Many thanks shan

Hi Jacques, Well i suppose i have to take the Bait ....but why not a great job? :? It was an old blade i believe and also in fairly poor condition to start with, but if you say its "not a great job", then i would like some reasons why you felt the need to express that. :| many thanks Shan

Hi John,Carlo and the Forum Posse, Well i guess you have to hold it to understand and the size just does not translate well. If it is, as sugested, not a mini wakizashi because the kozuka is not of a reduced size then thats OK. I still think its a lovely little item and well thought out.(except for the Kozuka) I have googled and only found one that is the same and it is classed as a Tanto. Item number 11 (all rights reserved and copyrighted satcho.com,and whatever else i need to put) http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:r9 ... cd=1&gl=uk This is in Tanto mounts, but i see they are very similar blades. I wonder why the experts did not sugest it??? (i suppose you have to have it in hand) I did look everywhere and the closest i got to size was around 14 inches or more,hence the confusion. Many thanks for tilting me towards a more logical conclusion. So now i have 2 unusual Tanto in my collection :D and 4 normal Hira Zukuri conforming Tanto. I wonder now if it can be placed in a school or period. do the mounts help as i think they are original (maybe,possibly)? regards shan

No Nick, This was by Les Stewart. He is booked up until 2010/11 and beyond, but i have a few more slots booked in march/April and again in August /sept for a handful of potential "keepers" and then a about 5 windows on some more and 6 Kozuka Kogatana blades that are signed and nicely tempered.(just want to see how they turn out). regards Shan

Well thanks for that,I see i still see things through "rose coloured glasses" so to speak. I am not looking deep enough it seems, i am still in the superficial "mode". I will try to judge better and be a little more discerning in choices. I promise the next item will be of much better quality and deserve to be discussed (probably...hopefully.....Maybe?) To digress slightly... because i have to...... The Post from me titled "Any views on these items that came today?" 119 views and not one reply (like garlic to a vampire... i am to this forum) Did you like the silver Tsuba ,Habaki and Seppa that i posted images of?They came with a koto blade i got.The Fuchi of a tiger that came with that was also a low status item? Would being silver mean it was higher status by the way or more for export as western tastes prefered silver? regards shan

Hi John, I have some images before the polish. I will post them for now and try to take some more if needed. The total length is 41cm from end to end of the mounts. Tsuba is 49mm x 34mm outer measurements Fuchi is 31mm x 20mm outer measurements ,3mm thick. Kozuka is normal sized. Blade is 4.5mm motokasane ,22mm motohaba and 25cm Nagasa. Kissaki is 30mm to yokote.sakikasane is 4.2mm. Tsuka is 9.5cm. I hope this helps. regards shan

Hi Milt, OK thats a much better heavier piece than mine and yes its very nice. But i can see a lot of similarities and the school (or school copiers)covered a vaste period. I will try to take better images and get back to you. Mine is in not as fine condition and slightly less detailed theme but the characters and gold are rendered the same. Mine is also uncleaned as i don`t know how to do it. I am not sayiing its a masterworks, but in hand,it is quite nicely done,Its for mounts. (In my defence). regards Shan

Carlo, I have no Idea as i rarely get the chance to talk to him. I merely send the items by post on an email confirmed & booked date and he returns them when finished with a Bill for the payment. I get an email stating the item is on its way back and that is that. In March i will send 3 more swords and when done it will get an email stating that they are on there way back. He is far too busy to answer a phone.I have spoken to him once by phone since i have used him and he called me. I could ask by email but it could be (and usually is) a very long wait. Hence it may be quicker with all the Nihonto collectors to ask here on the forum. Carlo stated "Shan, a Togishi worths his salt usually have an idea of what he's handling even before the polish." I fail to see how any Togoshi that has been presented with a blade showing no hada or hamon and certainly needing its lines refreshed could know what he was going to do or even what he had before at the very least opening a window or starting the polish to see what is there hada and hamon wise.(do they kantei rusty obscured blades?) The blade had endured many years of home polishing (sanding) and abuse from its other owners so nothing was really there to see. The hamon changes at the Yokote so in order to determine the Yokote placement he needed to see that change. Even the best togoshi needs to "see the canvas " no? Perhaps Ted can help as a resident togoshi on the forum? regards Shan

apologies i meant The Soten School (not Shoami,Tsuba on the brain i guess) I believe they used to do samurai stories thenes etc... or maybe i am way off the mark as usual. shan

It’s as I have said already, Does professing a lack of knowledge and slipping the odd few Bad deals amongst the odd good deals constitute a good or honorable seller? I have to do another deal with the seller as I won another item from him. If it turns up it will be a good deal (if as described and pictured) Good or not that will be the last deal I do with them. I don’t blame him for his professed lack of knowledge,that’s his safety net if a buyer does reject the item, but it does not take a rocket scientist to know an item is New (not old) and also very poorly made (not a High grade item). He posts items fast and his communications are very good ,but ultimately I do not believe that he could stand in front of me a claim the item was “an old thing and a high grade item with fine carving” without looking nervous. IMHO. However as he cannot defend himself I will just say that on this occasion I felt cheated but on the next deal(paid for and waiting)I may feel different. shan

Thankyou everyone for your opinions and guesses. Having thought about it,It would be unfair of me to ask you for opinions and then to reject some of them "out of hand" like i have been.They are all Possibilities. It is an enigma item and I guess we will never know what its maker originally intended (beyond the desire to make a mini copy of a wakizashi and then get mounts made for it). It’s a True mini item and I think it’s quite nice because of that. It will be going to a shinsa somewhere eventually, along with the Osoraku Tanto and 3 other swords of "merit". Many thanks for all the suggestions they are all thought provoking. Shan

Good shot Carlo, but i have been told by the same source that he has never heard of a tempered Dolls sword and that the doll would have to be very large to fit the blade so Its conflicting information all round really. :? "A Bunraku puppet of extremely high quality might be another possibility IMHO." I have never seen one ,but if a temperd blade was ever made for one, then yes,thats possible. My original thoughts were that it was for a very young boy being presented to his lord and the court requirement being that he be armed, but his status being that it would not be with a katana.It would fit a 5 year old well. Again its a stab in the dark. regards shan

Hi Brian, Not really very knowledgable in this area but shoami? Its carved not pressed and is way better in person. It has an old repair/ regards shan

Inazuma, was this an intentional trait? Anyone care to have a go at date and school based on the activity and the blade? regards shan

Thanks John, That perfect for my records. A very nice Kantei of an average item. I just like to know what period and school for my records. I will one day mount them. many thanks to you all ..........and glad you enjoyed the thread (even if you digressed a little) :D regards shan

Franco stated "When it comes to nihonto assuming (as entertaining as it might be), is a risky exercise at best. So, what makes you assume the possibility of this ko wakizashi being part of a daisho? Evidence, speculation? As the merchant class were allowed to carry wakizashi wouldn't that be a strong possibility? " Hi Franco, the merchant class appeared to try to get as close to the limit of size as they legally could,this is far too small to even consider as a slashing weapon. If the merchant was a 3ft dwarf then you could be right. :? I do not believe its a tanto, Kenji mishina thought it a BoysDaySword or miniature blade for a doll. The large BDS collector who is writing a book on BDS,thought it definatly not and possibly a wakizashi for a person of considerably small stature. Everything about this item dictates "Miniature" from the Fuchi to the saya and blade and even the tsuka and menuki. I originally thought BDS but have been told it does not conform to a BDS as they were not Wakizashi. A sample blade is a possibilty i suppose , but having not heard of one I cannot be sure they existed.(at least mounted samples anyway) Sure John,it may be a Tanto (not an ideal shape for a stabbing weapon, but possible) but i think not. When the mounts are restored i will show it to you in its mini mounts to judge. If you held it in your hands you would then understand. Its an oddball item. However whatever it is a lot of time , effort and cost went into producing it. Stephen and brian, it may be that you are the closest here in that it may have been presented to either a person or a clan as a sample of workmanship,but why a smaller version ,would be the next question. I like the ideas as they help to logically rule out the improbable and narrow it down. I feel we may never know why it was made though. many thanks shan.

Hi, I cannot find a Mino smith with the name ,but Bizen and Yamashiro are listed. If i had to hazard a guess based on the image i would say that the Nakago looks later than 1750. The latest i can find is a yamashiro smith from 1688 but having a blade from that period and school i cannot see that yours appears as old based on Nakago. It is also worth noting that none of the later smiths signed with just 2 characters. I would guess that this is a gimei (IMHO) of the much earlier Bizen smith who did sign Yoshi-nobu. one in 1293 and another 1362 and again in 1394 as they were JO JO saku. its just a guess though i am sure people more knowledgable will help you further. regards shan

I got this FC and it appears to be reasonably well done and with heavy gold and silver carving. I can take better images that are less "shiny" but i thought i would just run it by the fittings experts before i got too involved in images. It looks way better than it photographs. would you think it a good make or poor? thanks shan

Here is a quick comparison against a 52cm Wakizashi. and a comparison against a tanto/small waki Fuchi. regards shan

Hi GuysBrian,Stephen ,i can supply an image of it next to a wakizashi for scale ,i will use one of similar shape. I will post it here tomorrow. Brian,I also think it was a miniature of some sort like an example of workmanship or presentation piece. Its an odd beast for sure but nicely done,but i will try to restore the Edo period mounts as well. Problem is everything was scaled down and the Kashira was missing so i am going to find it Difficult to replace,but all else is there. The nagasa is 25cm sorry. any idea of school or period? Many thanks shan

HI Brian, Thanks it is a handsome blade ....Now.(you have seen the "before" images in another post) Yes, i like the way the smith thought about the hamon that way and made it change at Yokote.(made it easy for the togoshi to pinpoint Yokote location) My only regret is that the togoshi has taken our about 5 "war" notches from the mune that i had asked remain.(it does look nice without,but i like the war wounds personally) Re shinsa: It was one i wanted to send to shinsa ,but it only came back today so it was not ready then. If it was ready, it would have been presented along with the Baby wakizashi that came back today as well.(also posted on the forum) Both are very nicely made items IMHO. Truth is i was not sure what to expect from a shinsa so only sent 3 blades when i could gave sent 12 or more. I had to decide on the ones that i wanted to know more about, that were in a good state of polish. If anyone can sugest a smith who may have made this (other than Kiyomaru who didn`t make this)then please do so. I am not so advanced that i can read the activity either ,what would describe the "black" lines in the hamon? regards Shan