Kaigunto230

I found this at a local antique shop, and I'm considering purchasing it. However, I'd like to acquire an Army sword rather than a Police sword. The shop lists it as a Police sword, but to my novice's eye, it's got characteristics of both. On the decorative guard, it has (although faded) the Army's 10-petal Sakura shape instead of the Police's 5 petal (check out Dawson's page 300). However, looking at the backstrap decoration (which I wish I had gotten a better photo of), it appears to be the 5-petal Sakura. That said, it doesn't match any of the Police backstraps on Dawson page 301. But then again, I can't find any Army swords that have a 5-petal design on the lower backstrap. Fuller and Gregory page 65 (Military Swords of Japan) has a rubbing of an Army sword with the 5-petal backstrap, but it's on the upper portion. So, what do you think? First, is it Army or Police? And secondly, $159 (including tax) isn't a bad price, right? Seems like that's about the going rate or even a little under. This one has some wear but not horrible.

And here's my second kantei of my other purchase from the show:

Hmm, interesting. The dealer told me it was suriage, so that could be confirmation bias on my part. That said, the judgement came from the fact that there's two mekugiana, and the nakago feels stubby. It's small enough that you almost can't get a full fist around it. Given the length of the sword, that seems off. Lastly, the sugata shape seemed like it was missing a bit of its curvature. Could you please say a bit more on why you think it's ubu? Other than that gap, the nakago in the shirasaya feels perfect. Maybe that's not a strike after all.

@Shugyosha and @Geraint, thank you for the reply and discussion on Kaga nakago jiri. I had seen discussion of that while researching and just forgot to include. That's another strike here. As to the smith, personally, I have doubts that he exists. I did the same on Google for awhile, and the online databases. If either of you has Sesko's Index A-M, the entry would be on page 145. Google books preview, Murphy's Law, of course you get all the pages right around there but not that particular one. @Stephen I also got a private message about the nagasa and sori measurement, so I realize the photo must be misleading. I measured correctly, just have the measuring tape going past the nakago. I found it difficult to hold the tape and the sword, so I extended and locked the tape past the nakago and then just wrote down the proper nagasa measurement. Regarding habaki - I couldn't get it off and didn't want to damage either, so I left it in place and did the best I could. There's a margin of error on motohaba and motokasane, but I think I compensated okay for the habaki in place and think I made the right call in not trying to force it off (left the hammer in the toolbox )

Here's my kantei of the sword. My gut tells me the sayagaki doesn't match (biggest problem is the fit within the shirasaya and the nagasa measurement), but to my amateur's eye, the sword does exhibit many Kachu traits. Who knows? Thank you again so much for the help!

I. Introduction This is the second of two posts of my first attempts at doing kantei. I purchased two katana at the recent San Francisco Token Kai. I laid out my goals for the show and the results of my first kantei here: In addition to the sword above, for a small amount more, the dealer added a mumei katana in somewhat tired polish. However, this sword was not in such bad polish that I couldn't learn from it. In fact, its hamon is clearly visible, and the attributes are different from my first sword. As a result, I found it well worth my money to add another in-hand studying piece. Here's the two side by side: In addition, this sword provided an intriguing sayagaki. The dealer did not know if the sayagaki matched the actual sword in the shirasaya, and I priced it accordingly. The sayagaki describes the sword's nagasa as being 66.5 cm and attributes it to Kashū Kanemune saku (加州兼宗作). More discussion on the sayagaki in Section V below. II. My Kantei Brief Overall Description: Mumei Katana with "Kanemune" Sayagaki Shirasaya length: 93 cm Overall length: 74.8 cm Nagasa lengh: 61.4 cm Kasane length: 0.7 cm Mekugiana: 2 Mihaba: 2.7 cm Motohaba: 2.8 cm Sakihaba: 1.9 cm Motokasane: 0.7 cm Weight: unknown (didn't have a proper scale) Sugata shape: Shinogi-zukuri Hada: itame mixed with mokume Sori: 2.0 cm; Type: Torrizori Kissaki: Chu-kissaki Mune: Iori Hamon: Midare/Notare: O-Notare near hamachi but transitions to gunome midare near kissaki Yakiba: Nioi with Nie Boshi: Ko-maru Sagari Nakago: Suriage; Futsu-gata with Ha-agari Kuri-juri tip Yasurime: Kattesagari Bohi: N/A Koshirae: shirasaya Polish: Original/Old Period: I'm at a loss. Listed as late Koto/early Shinto. School: I'm at a loss. Origami: N/A Other Information: Bought from Mr. Tony Smith in conjunction with another sword as a bundle deal at the 2021 Token Kai. III. Photos Although the ruler is extended from kissaki to past the nakago, because I had troubles holding the measuring tape in alignment with the sword. The number I recorded was a proper nagasa measurement (kissaki to munemachi and not measuring the nakago). The deepest curvature of the sori (same here on it being measured only by the nagasa despite the ruler extending past the nakago): Note the following two pictures in regards to discussion on the sayagaki below. It's the lower mekugiana that fits this shirasaya, and the fitting isn't perfectly snug: 2 mekugiana and suriage: Crude drawing of measurements of nakago: Iori mune: Hamon starts as o-notare with a mix of itame and mokume hada: But the hamon transitions to gunome midare near kissaki Ko-maru Sagari boshi Quite small Chu-Kissaki. Pencil for scale IV. School So, now we get the actual heart of the matter. What do I actually have here? Having measured it and looked through Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" for a time, I figured it'd be better to post here and open this for discussion. If this is a super easy one, please don't laugh. I'm doing my best to learn But what time period do people think I have, and what school? Here's my best guesses: School: Shinto Soshu school based off Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" page 231, but frankly, I'm absolutely guessing. Maybe Kashu (see below)? Time-period: Early Edo (1644-1687) because it's shinogi-zukuri, shallow sori, chu-kissaki, narrow sakihaba, and the although the standard nagasa length is listed about 70 cm and this sword is 61.4, it's suriage. V. Sayagaki Next, onto the sayagaki. I noted the couple photos above. From the outset, there's a couple issues. First, I couldn't find a Kachu smith by the name of Kanemune. If someone would look at page 145 of Markus Sesko's A-M Index for a Kachu Kanemune, you'd be a lifesaver. Right now, I can't justify spending another $90 on books, as I just bought a bunch of books (and these two swords); I'll probably get his e-book Index later this fall. That's strike one. Strike two is the fit of the shirasaya. You see from one of the photos above that the blade at the habaki is a little loose, perhaps a millimeter but still not perfect. Perhaps the greatest problem is the nagasa measurement. The sayagaki says it should be 66.5 cm. However, the sword itself is 61.4 cm. But, I did wonder if that has to do with it being suriage. In the shirasaya, it sits in the lower mekugiana, and that is 2.4 cm lower than the upper mekugiana. I'm not sure how much (if any) of the nagasa is lost when shortened (I know it's shortened from the nakago), but perhaps the blade was 66.5 cm and is now not long enough. Something in its favor however, is that it's got most of the wickets hit for a Kashu school sword (see Nagayama's "Connoisseur's" page 245-246). It has: the chu-kissaki and standard tapering mihaba, mokume-hada (I think), o-notare midare and o-gunome midare with wide hamon; Ko-maru boshi a kuri-jiri nakago katte sagari yasurime So, what do you think? Do I have a Kanemune sword that's mumei (either originally or as a result of suriage)? Or has someone attempted to bamboozle me with a nice sayagaki on my shirasaya? As I said, I negotiated the price and bought it thinking it was intriguing but likely not matching the sword given the dealer's hesitancy. VI. Conclusion I'm very proud of the work I did here and with my other kantei. These were the first Nihonto that I've held in my hands at home, and I used my resources and documented them well using the full Kantei sheet. That's not at all to say I think I did perfectly or even well; I'm positive I made multiple mistakes. But I'm proud that I didn't plop two pictures of the two swords on this forum and ask to be spoon-fed information. As for spending the money on these swords which may not be perfect, everyone has an opinion on how/if another person should spend their money on particular swords. For me, I spent half my budget, accomplished my listed goals, have incredible enjoyment out of these, and will care for them while they're in my ownership. Hats off to everyone else for their own opinions, but I'm pleased as punch with mine. Thank you for your time in reading, your guidance, and in commenting and adding to the discussion.

@Jussi Ekholm Very fun to look at! Thank you so much for digging through your books and then posting.

@Gakusee and @uwe thank you both so much! I really, really appreciate the generosity of your time. I'm finding kanji to be one of the least approachable aspects of this field. Just need more studying, obviously. As to the length, I'm hoping to do a full kantei today and will circle back here when I post that. As to the signature: 加州 - Kashū. The characters match Kaga Prefecture, and I know typically the place of the smith's province proceeds their name. Is that correct here? 兼宗 - Kanemune. Unfortunately, I'm not finding a Kanemune who hailed from Kaga province. Yumoto's book only lists one from Yamato province. Nihonto Club's site has a bunch of Kanemunes but again, none from Kaga (https://nihontoclub.com/view/smiths/list?id_op=%3D&id=&name_op=starts&name=kanemune&kanji_op=%3D&kanji=&province=All&start_era=All&school_nid=All ). Finally, Nagayama doesn't have any info on Kanemune from Kaga. Interestingly, he does list Kanewaka (兼若), whose name is close but no cigar. Does anyone know of another Kanemune from Kashū/Kaga that I haven't found yet? 作 - saku. Does this just mean "made"? Contextually, when I google this, I never find the word alone. It just comes with the ratings: chu saku, chu-jo saku, jo saku etc. Like I said, the whole thing could be nonsense, but it is intriguing.

Thanks @Tom Darling! I’m not sure when the next show I’ll get to attend will be, but I’m positive it’ll happen some time. Our cat is pretty great We got him when we lived in Japan. He’s naughty and kind of dim sometimes, but we love him.

@Geraint, thank you for this! Of course, @Grey Doffin did sort me out incredibly quickly and for a very reasonable price, which seems to be his norm: excellence every time. I'm excited to read these essays!

Hello everyone. I recently purchased a tired mumei katana at the Token Kai. I bought it as part of a bundle deal, and although it's in tired polish, its characteristics were far different than its counterpart in the deal, and it gives me a lot to study in hand. Part of the intriguing part of this sword was that its saya came with a sayagaki. The dealer pointed out that he didn't know from the provenance if the sayagaki actually matched the blade sitting in the shirasaya, and I negotiated the price assuming it's not a match. That said, I'd love if it actually did match the sword. The sword itself is suriage and allegedly late koto/early shinto. Could someone please help me with the translation of the sayagaki? The sword also came with a tag that read "Kashu Kanemune Saku." Does this tie into the sayagaki? I intend to fully kantei this sword sometime in the next week, but I can do quick measurements/take photos if that will help with the translation here. Closer to the top (nearer the nakago while the sword is resting with its (saya-covered) kissaki on the floor): Closer to the kissaki while it's resting with the kissaki on the floor:

Did anyone else make some purchases at the show? I'd love to see them (always fun to enjoy without spending your own money!)! For me, here's the first of my two swords: I plan to kantei the other one soon.

Thanks so much @Jussi Ekholm!! The sword bag from the dealer lists the smith as 1. YUKINAGA (行長), Tenshō (天正, 1573-1592), but since the kanji on the mei are the same for the different generations, I don't take that to mean a lot. My imagination gets a bit ahead of me though because I'd love to have a sword from the Sengoku Jidai. My brain instantly starts the shenanigans: "Ooh, it probably was carried at Sekigahara," etc. Did the Bungo book have any oshigata from Yukinaga? If so, would you mind please snapping a photo for here? I found taking the photos here very difficult, and I think the sword is in better polish than these photos depict. The hamon is immediately visible, there's that pit that's photographed, a couple darker spots, and the boshi was very difficult to determine. But regardless, I think it's beautiful! I'll pull the sword out and look at the hada again to see if it looks itame.

Thank you all for your engagement. Honestly, this community adds so much to the study. Another question. Do you see the odd darker colors on the bottom circumference of the mekugiana? It also appears distinctly on the origami oshigata. It's like someone added back material when they made the hole too wide. That's my assumption, but am I right?

@Stephen, thanks for the measurement website! I think Yumoto's book had the same/similar diagram, so that's what I tried to do. The picture above with the ruler going from the kissaki to the munemachi is my attempt. Felt a little ridiculous going up and down it for twenty minutes looking for the point with the greatest distance, but I do think it's in the waist. Here's some quick photoshopping; I think the point where the curvature starts getting smaller is the orange line. Sorry about the measurements on the kantei sheet. Relooking, those are a little difficult to read huh? Is this better? I'd re-edit my post but time ran out. Speaking of obsession, is it bad that I've already thought "Gold status is $30/six months? That's a great deal since I've been spending so much time on here!" Who knows Brief Overall Descrition: Fujiwara Yukinaga Shinto Katana with NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho Origami Shirasaya length: 93.5 cm Overall length: 82.5 cm Nagasa lengh: 64 cm Kasane length: 0.7 cm Mekugiana: 1 Mihaba: 3 cm Motohaba: 3 cm Sakihaba: 2 cm Motokasane: 0.7 cm Weight: unknown (didn't have a proper scale) Sugata shape: Shinogi-zukuri Hada: mokume Sori: 1.8 cm; Type: Koshizori (but discussion on whether it's torrizori) Kissaki: chu-kissaki Mune: Iori Hamon: chu suguha Yakiba: Nioi deki (this one was difficult too; I couldn't see any nie, but it's not in brilliant polish, so that may have complicated matters. Can you see anything different on the hada/hamon picture?) Boshi: Ichi-mai (Again, the polish made this difficult, but it seems like the entire boshi was bright like the hamon. See the picture of the boshi/kissaki above. Do you think I'm right?) Nakago: Ubu; Futsu-gata Yasurime: Kattesagari Bohi: N/A (Is there a term for a sword that doesn't have bo-hi? Online some jokester said "No-Hi" and I'm inclined to go with that unless someone points me to something better ) Koshirae: shirasaya Polish: Modern (I think; another stare at it for a time and make a call) Period: Shinto School: Takada Origami: NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho from 3 June 1974 Other Information: Bought from Mr. Tony Smith in conjunction with another sword as a bundle deal at the 2021 Token Kai.

@Geraint, it IS Takada isn't it? It's funny, my eyes must've just glanced over the a and turned it into the e given the famous clan. Thanks also for the book recommendation. Ha ha, my wife and my wallet don't want to admit that you're right on the obsession piece, but evidence suggests.......

Couple questions. Do you think I got the sori correct? I went with Koshizori instead of Torriizori, because it looks to me like the deepest curve is in the waist/closer to the nakago, but it took some eyeballing for a time. Next, does anyone have a good reference for Bungo Takeda school? Nagayama's Connoisseur's book has a short description but not too much to go on. I'd like to learn more about my particular smith.

I’m not sure who Joe is, but he sounds like a an upstanding gentleman 😉 Thank you for the compliment too. I think my generation could use a bit more looking towards the past than at their iPhones.

This will be the first of two posts, since I purchased two swords. I recently attended the 2021 San Francisco Token Kai and had a marvelous time. You can see some of my photos/video here: As I'm a beginner, and this was my first show, I had several goals: First and foremost was to learn and handle Nihonto for the first time. Next was to come away with a sword to study if I found something within my budget ($3000) that caught my heart. This may seem a humble budget, but I have already invested in a solid library of books on Nihonto, we have our first baby on the way, and I am hesitant to spend more than this at the beginning of a hobby that isn't (yet ) an obsession. Since I lived there for a time, I wanted to accomplish #2 with a smith from Kyushu. I am very happy to say that I was able to accomplish all three goals for well below my budget! With my trusty set of books and the Kantei Sheet from the NMB documents, I set up shop in our living room and got to work on my first kantei. I started with sword given the fact that it is a papered blade, and I hoped to be confirming that paper as I refreshed myself/applied the myriad terms required in kantei. Yes, I know the warnings with green origami and knew them when I purchased the sword, but it's a minor smith (less chance/cause to forge the papers), was very reasonably priced, I liked the sword itself, and see Goals 2 and 3 above: So, without further ado, here's my first attempt at a Kantei. Rather than re-typing all the measurements/assessments out, please check out the kantei sheet. I absolutely welcome all comments, constructive criticism, or your thoughts. Thank you! ..

Beautiful @Toryu2020!! Thank you!

I think it’s so fun when people post their purchases - lets us vicariously enjoy it and not spend the money Thanks!

Shoot, sorry, but I didn’t catch his name. It looks like he’s a regular though; his booth and back of his head (presumably) is in this 2016 video at 1:41, and he’s got Maker’s Mark then too: . Like I said, really nice gentleman. Thanks, everyone, for the nice comments! It was just so FUN to hold things in hand and actually talk with people about this niche topic in person.

Here's the shot of my loot upon getting home! I need to properly take photos and kantai the two katana I purchased, so those will be in the "Nihonto" sub-forum sometime in the next month. And finally is the short walkaround video I took. I didn't want to be too obtrusive, so it's probably about a third of the booths and really just a glancing view of most. But fun to see everyone!

I'm home now after my first sword show at the San Francisco Token-Kai. I had an incredible time, learned so much, made a few purchases, met some great people, and can't wait to attend another show. For those that missed it, here's a few photos and a video I took of the event. My camera is just an older iPhone, so I imagine there are better photos out there, but here's what I've got. Me up and ready bright and early for the day. My wife tagged along for the morning, but I was left free rein for the afternoon I went back and looked at this BEAUTIFUL sword several times. A Hizento by the second generation, the owner had just completed a daisho by the first generation Tadayoshi and was selling this example from the same school: One of the best attendees was this little friend: A MASSIVE o-dachi: A Yoroi-dōshi (edited for spelling, thanks Piers D!). I had been hoping to see one! Ha ha ha, I'm not quite sure about the science here, but a great way to build community, and the dealer was incredibly nice! Very few kyu gunto present. I had been hoping to study more, but honestly, I think there were perhaps 3 total. Of course, I was foolish and didn't get a good photo of this display, which was several Juyo works, and the most expensive was $175,000. Beautiful!!

I'm re-looking at it, and I had my columns misplaced. So on this photo, the black circled kanji is roughly equivalent to "this katana is signed" the red is the mei of the smith, "Fujiwara Yukinaga" and the blue is "and X centimeters long"? How many centimeters long did it list? Following that, these kanji are the "To-kyokai (our organization) has rated this item as an Extraordinary Work (Tokubetsu Kicho)"?