Janrudolph

Hi everyone! I have a tanto with an abnormal shape (see pic). Tantos don't come with shinogi like the majority of katanas. This one does. Therefore it cannot be classified as a true tanto. It looks like a miniature katana in tanto length. So I believe this is a boy's sword also. Some folks on the forum have swords much like this, so I'm wondering about the "rarity" of it. Johan

No good changing diets, Jean. Stick with what you have. Your advice you gave earlier: "You can try to prove that if you find a spot where the lacquer has chipped off. Old URUSHI work is thick and has a solid base layer, MEIJI lacquer on tourist items is usually thin." I did that; it seems the lacquer is not thin. Here & there I find some chips, but the wood base does not even show. I think the saya is a good one, but what DOES set me doubting, is the kaeshizuno which is attached to the saya on both ends. See pic. It can't hook the obi like that. I have not found pics to compare this one to, so I don't know if this is normal. Johan

Jean C, my apologies! That's a blunder on my part. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that. I might have read somewhere that a tsuka was made of bamboo, or imagined it. And then the brain malfunction occurred... Of course tsukas are traditionally made from honoki wood (Magnolia spp) or one or two highly debated alternatives. I try to be perfect in all things, but the strange thing is, I don't seem to succeed...!

Brian, thank you. Your comments are once again appreciated. It seems this thread (which might be my last) is drawing to a close, and I thought it would be interesting to the forum members to read my final conclusions concerning my three nihonto swords. This, coming from a novice collector of nihonto like myself, might even then be fraught with misconceptions, but I need to decide what it is that I have uncovered & learnt from my fact-gathering plus contributions of forum members in the threads till now. All this in a very small nutshell! 1) My katana blade, straight hamon, signed by Nobuyoshi 2nd gen and dated 1680 is Edo, blade is tired, there's a chance the signature might be real, high quality fittings are all very recent, with the only exceptions being the bamboo tsuka, sa-me, and tsuba, which are as old as the blade. 2) My wakizashi blade, straight hamon, signed by Yasuhiro (gimei) and undated, is Meiji but not a rebellion sword, blade is tired as well as shortened, might have been in a fire, fittings are as old as the blade, with the exception of the wrapping which is recent. 3) My tanto, unsigned and undated, straight hamon but difficult to see, blade and all fittings original, might have been produced in Meiji times, probably a "boy's sword" because it has the shinogi, all fittings belong to the blade. This is a complete unaltered nihonto, which might count for something. --- All the above my own conclusions, as with antiques just 'educated' guesses ----- Regards to all the forum members. Johan.

Geraint & Jean C, you can be sure I'll take your kind comments under serious consideration, as I always do. Far be it from me to try to justify a poor specimen if such justification is unwarranted. So Edo it is not. I'll easily bite on to the idea that it might be Meiji (and I'm going to study the Meiji history in more detail). I must tell you at this stage that when I procured this wakizashi I pestered the seller for as much background information as he can provide. I could have saved myself the effort. He was not the owner for long, but he gave me a written note that said (and I know it's just hearsay, but still) "This wakizashi is 1800's, connected to a rebellion, according to an expert in Pretoria. It is signed. The expert believed the sword was originally a katana blade." People who read this can make whatever judgements they like, and I realize the statement, as is, does not mean too much. I would have loved to have spoken to the "expert" to hear his motivation for his statements. Anyhow, I though it would make interesting reading to tell you this. I was not able to delve deeper into the background of this sword. The seller was very uncommunicative. The two-kanji signature, if you remember, is Yasuhiro, probably gimei. Friends, if what I have divulged here will stimulate more comments from you, it will be for my education in the nature of my nihonto sword. Please don't keep them back. Gratefully, Johan

I think I must have put the forum members on the wrong track with my last post above. It might look like I have already answered my own questions. In fact please respond only to my very first post above. I'm looking forward to seeing your kind comments and suggestions. Johan

I've looked at the colours of the various creatures in the pics above, and these are the actual shades of red (?) I see on the saya. The octopus is as shown: decidedly brighter and redder than the others. In addition, if you're asking, the saya has a sayajiri, kurigata plus shitodome, as well as a kaeshizuno. The koiguchi is is buffalo horn and there is a pocket for kogatana/kozuka. Johan

Friends, I would like to show you some pics of my wakizashi saya, and I'd like to know what you think. I realize I cannot expect you to tell me in which year the saya was made (!!!); joke aside, would it be possible to say if this is an old saya, perhaps Edo or pre-1800 or something like that? I've also posted pics of the maki-e on the glossy black scabbard. It seems to be raised lacquer, coloured with what I presume to be copper metal powder. The nature of the pics (sea-living organisms) might give a clue? Maybe there is a style to them that could indicate age? I see an octopus, a sole-type flatfish, two molluscs and a conch, and strange little fan-like shapes, of which there are quite a lot scattered over the saya. Any comments will be appreciated! Johan

Fascinating aspects of the broad picture of nihonto! Thanks, Jean & all others who took part in this thread. All your kind comments went into my better understanding of Japan's edged weapons! I'm truly indebted. Johan

Very interesting, Jean! Do I understand it correctly that these "schools" are groups much like guilds? These schools are each founded, if I have read correctly in other threads, by an individual and then they grow as smiths/learner smiths attend. I should think they might also physically work together in a group? I have read about the famous Rai school. Perhaps I need to get more info on these "schools" and how they were conducted. Do you or anyone else perhaps have a good link for me? Johan

Bryce, John L & Michael, thank you for coming in! I really appreciate your contribution comments. As usual, I will re-read what you all have said and try to get behind the "history" of my sword! It is like a scene in the mist gradually forming into something recognisable as one contemplates all the accumulating comments and informed opinions. What fun! Much obliged. Johan

Steve M & Jean L, thank you again for coming in. I'm very grateful that you volunteered all this detail, and to be sure I'll study what you have written and shown. Jean, one thing that stands out regarding your 3 very neat examples of the mei plus mine plus another I've seen a picture of: they appear clearly to be different "handwriting" in all cases - meaning (if I am correct) kogatana smiths use apprentices to sign the tangs. Perhaps not all - one of yours, Jean, perhaps the "nicest" one, might well be the smith' Kiyonaga's, but they can't all have been signed by the same hand. Or so it looks to me. Then again, from what I've read about gimei, some collectors would immediately say the signatures might not have been the work of Kiyonaga's apprentices, but lesser smiths who imitated Kiyonaga? Johan

That's very interesting, Jean, and thank you. 1. Please tell me, of the three kogatana you have like mine, are they 100% identical in the wording of the mei? 2. The kanji 於 that we spoke about higher up in this thread, which is "at" or "on", seems also to be "on the bank of", "by the side of", "in the neighbourhood", or "nearby". This is hotori, if I am not mistaken? 3. The kanji 麓 seems to be sanroku, which I believe means "foothills". Jean, do you (or others) think I am correct here? Regards, Johan

Moriyama san, I thank you very much for helping out. It's great to be able to talk with knowledgeable people world-wide on these matters of our common interest! I thank you others too, who have come into this thread. I must say, concerning this mei, I found it strange that the kanji seem so unintelligible and (dare I say it:) poorly formed! I can only assume the smith gave the work of inscribing the signature characters to an assistant or apprentice, who perhaps was not a great calligrapher! Once again, this is my assumption. Please allow me to explain why I make so many assumptions - you will see, this thread is full of them. It is not that I do not accept the word of you forumites and rather make up my own mind about translation matters. That would be stupid of me. It is rather my way of demonstrating that I am willing to go about my own research and not sit back idle, waiting for forumites to answer my questions without me doing my bit. Up till now most of my assumptions have not been challenged. The one or two that have been doubted, I have learned from and I have corrected my thinking. I firmly believe that you forumites will not remain silent if I write nonsense about any Japanese sword matter! I would want you to pull out your big guns and send flak in my direction. And it would not be good for younger or novice collectors to read my assumptions, see them go unchallenged, and believe that they are sound. In post #9 above Jean L has posted an image which I would very much to know what the source is. That must be an wonderful book/article to have access to! I myself have tons of books, but they are about many and varied edged weapons and none about Japanese swords. I have borrowed only two books from an iaido sensei in my city about bladesmithing in Japan. So my assumptions are not likely to be 100% sound in every case! Do you guys have thoughts on this matter? Johan

Friends, this I have gleaned from the kind responses to this thread so far: There are no indications that a smith like this Bunsei era Kiyonaga favoured certain kozuka to fit his blades to. He probably never made kozukas himself. The fact that the kozuka my blade is fitted to, shows the mythical Tawara Toda defeating the monstrous centipede is just coincidence. They might have been put together ever since my wakizashi was made and have been together ever since, or someone might have swapped them around afterwards. My last few questions are about the arrangement of the kanjis on my kogatana blade (post #2). Looking at other examples by this smith, it seems to me that the kanjis 金華 (Kinka-zan) occupy the first two (top) positions on the mei. There is probably one kanji 麓 (foot/foothills) at the bottom. Then in the two columns of kanji between them I assume (because I really can't make out the shape of the characters due to the type of script used) that the left-hand column reads: 藤原清長 Fujiwara Kyonaga, and the right-hand column reads 於濃州長良川邊 Oite Noshu Nagaragawa-hotori. That's 14 kanji altogether. While trying to compile this, I have repeatedly gone back to your post #4, Moriyama San, where I see that you have 15 kanji. I'm thinking that your kanji 山 (mountain) is the one missing, because it does not seem to be included in the mei, whereas one would think it should be easy to spot. Perhaps my smith found it unnecessary to include that kanji in the mei, because Kinka-zan is the name of the mountain, and to call it "Mt. Kinka Mountain" would be strange?! I'm either starting to get it here, or losing it altogether! Please help me out patiently and put me on the right track so we can close this thread. Johan

Thank you, Uwe & Jean L. Wonderful extra information! I therefor need to retract what I wrote above: "Fujiwara Kiyonaga worked at Gifu in the Mino Province, at about the middle of the Edo period (1603-1867), in the Genroku era (1688-1704)." That was an earlier Kiyonaga. What indications are there that a smith like this Bunsei era Kiyonaga favoured certain kozuka to fit his blades to? I'm assuming he never made kozuka himself, but stuck to kogatana making. The kozuka my Kiyonaga blade is fitted into is the one showing Tawara Toda defeating the monstrous centipede. Is there any evidence that my kozuka and my kogatana might have been together from the beginning? Johan

Moriyama, Geraint & Brian, I have taken note of what you've written and will reread it to understand it fully. MANY THANKS! In the meantime I have arrived at the following, thanks to many references as well as forumites' helpful comments: Kanji analysis: 金華山 Mt. Kinka, Kinka-zan 麓 Foot 於 ??? 濃州 Noshu Province 長良川 Nagara River, Nagara-gawa 邊 Edge 藤原 Fujiwara clan name 清長 Kiyonaga, first name Meaning of the mei: "Fujiwara Kiyonaga, from the Nagara-gawa region of the Province of Noshu near Mount Kinka, forged this." Mt. Kinka, also known as Kinkazan, is located in the heart of the city of Gifu, Gifu Prefecture, Japan, and rises to a height of 329 m. It has long served as the representative symbol of Gifu. It stands along the Nagara River. Much of the city lies on the river's alluvial plain and is part of an environmental conservation district. Nōshū Province, one of the old provinces of Japan, encompassed the southern part of modern-day Gifu Prefecture. It was mostly known as Mino. Fujiwara Kiyonaga worked at Gifu in the Mino Province, at about the middle of the Edo period (1603-1867), in the Genroku era (1688-1704). Please help me to figure out what role the kanji 於 plays in the mei???? Johan

I must mention that the first thing I myself noticed was that the person who did the signature did not use a chisel, but hammered in the kanji strokes with a punch in the form of a wedge. Johan

Good day friends. I am blessed/cursed with an analythical mind or way of thinking. After 75 years I am still not able to shake it off! This way of looking at things has prompted me to approach my kogatana mei (see pics) in detail and with perseverance. I'm sure many of you will say: Don't go there! or You're making too much fuss over it! or Rather spend your energy on a kogatana of value or of better quality! And that would perhaps be the more sensible thing to do. But...ah yes, I have this curse of forever wanting to analyse things... have I said that already? I've spent hours on the kanjis I think I see in this mei, and I have looked at pictures of other mei which seemed similar or even identical. Now before I bore you all with what I'm guessing what the mei reads, please rather do me the gigantic favour of telling what YOU see. I will be very grateful! (The two pics each highlight half of the mei, on which the light has been directed for best clarity: right - top half, left - bottom half.) Johan

I'm moving this thread to Translation like Geraint wisely suggested. I've also tried to improve on the pics of the kogatana mei, which I will show there. Johan