Janrudolph

Good day friends! Some weeks have passed and I have completed my shirasaya-making project. It has taken me about six weeks. Please see the four pics I am posting. At this stage I have done using 320 grit sandpaper and I am wondering if I should go finer? Also I have not obtained info on what kind of coating I should put on the finished shirasaya - I believe it would be best to leave it as is? The wood is poplar, which I understand is an acceptable alternative to honoki. This is of importance: I am able to attest that the blade does not wobble in the saya, and the fit of the nakago in the tsuka is firm. I had intended the triple inserts (spacers) to be my signature feature on this shirasaya, and then after my work was done I discovered a shirasaya featured on an internet youtube (housing a 1500's nihonto katana) that had the exact same configuration. I was astounded at the coincidence! In colour pictures of old shirasaya I see in books the wood looks yellow/yellow-brown, while mine is white, but I suppose that's the difference between honoki and poplar. Also you will see I have put in a facet both sides, as in pictures I found. Otherwise the cross-section is ovoid. Whatever is non-traditional in my shirasaya I apologise for, but I feel understandably elated to have gone through this process of making my own "storage scabbard" and I gladly report it to you for comment. I will be grateful to hear whatever you might contribute. Regards. Johan

Darrel, Jean C, Didier and John J, thank you for participating. I truly appreciate each and every hint I am given. Jean C, I smiled when I read your text "If you do not have a sample of a SHIRA-SAYA at hand, no competent teacher to show you what could be important, probably not the necessary special tools, and not the right material (HONOKI), I think it will be difficult". That probably is an understatement! But I have battled through worse problems, like the buffalo horn grips for the SAA, being a solid one-piece. I not only have never had eyes on a shirasaya, but the only nihonto katana I have ever seen in my 75 years is the one I own! Truth is, after getting my grubby paws on that katana, I have spent MORE time on acquainting myself with Japanese history and culture plus kanji language than with ANY of my other antique edged weapons! And delving into Indonesian keris blades is already a colossal undertaking! I view my laborious undertaking of the making of the shirasaya as a kind of memorial to what I have learned of samurai and nihonto. I am now at the stage where the grooves for the blade has been hollowed out and the blade is already nice and snug. Next is the shaping of the space where the habaki fits in. For the two spacers (koiguchi and fuchi) I have selected a fine piece of red-brown hardwood. Regards. Johan

I received a note from someone who warned me against the use of glues to combine the saya halves, that have the potential of ruining a blade through gases that they generate. My thanks to him! A very long time ago (before the 1980's I believe) I made a presentation case for a pristine Luger pistol of mine, with its accoutrements. I used various glues on the wood and felt lining material and without thinking left the Luger in the box the first night. When I took the pistol out again, it had a fine layer of rust on it. Fortunately it cleaned up all right, and I was able to say: There's another valuable lesson I had learned, which will serve me in a good way in the years to come! The harmful gases go away in time (mostly) but if the chosen wood type generates gases, it must not be used at all. I went to quite a lot of trouble to get poplar wood for the shirasaya. Cheers. Johan

Darrel & Ed, thank you. That book would be a superb read! I'll need to see what I can do get it. And Ed, that technique is known to me (I've done a lot of reading), thanks anyhow, it will be the method I'm going to follow. In the meantime I looked at two large pictures of different shiyasaya taken lying flat. Taking only the saya part (I'll do the tsuka part later), I caliper-measured the length and width of each and found 191 mm x 11,5 mm, and 300 mm x 18,3 mm. After calculations it means my shirasaya (saya part 660 mm long) should have a width of 40 mm. I can eventually taper it slightly to the end. I can now construct on paper a traditional oval shape and measure the thickness it is supposed to have if the width is 40 mm.. The flats come later. For lack of a real shirasaya to do the measurements, this must do, and I hope I am spot-on to what it should be. BTW Ed, that statement of yours about the second shirasaya is soooo true. I have voiced that same statement everytime I completed a previous project! An example is the Sulawesi (Bugis) keris scabbard for a blade and handle that had come my way missing this important part. Another is the plow-handle grip that I made from black buffalo horn for a Uberti model 1873 Single Action Army, of which the handle was ill-fitting. Off topic here - I'll be shot down in flames! Work goes on! Cheers. Johan.

I'm asking for your help in this project of mine. I have done a lot of reading up on the matter and have come up with a lot of videos and instructions, also some admonishments from my only friend in a 100 km radius who at least owns a Chinese-made katana and has travelled Japan. There's no-one around here who owns Nihonto, except myself. Brian might know people in the Cape Town area, but I unfortunately don't. I decided to make a shirasaya for my Nihonto Edo katana. The reason being that the sword's koshirae seems to be all wrong and non-Japanese. So now I've progressed so far that I've chiselled out the blade grooves in the two scabbard halves (Poplar wood), and I need now to repeatedly try the blade so that I can see how much more wood to take away to ensure the correct fit. I don't have recourse to museums or sword shows and don't know of any folks in my neck of the woods who own a shirasaya. I myself have never laid eyes on one, barring pictures of course. Otherwise I could have just visited such folks and measured it myself. I have learned (right or wrong) that a shirasaya is of the same thickness and breadth throughout the whole of its length. It doesn't taper any. Cut through, the profile is oval. Some shirasaya have slightly flattened sides. I need help on the outside measurements of a shirasaya, please. What is the thickness of the oval, and what is its breadth/width? Do these measurements pertain to a shirasaya with or without the flattened sides? Your kind help will be greatly appreciated! Johan.

Understood, Jean. At the moment it looks to me (and I'm trying to be very positive) as if the kashira and saya band was created by a non-Japanese artist/metalworker, but I had hoped there was some resemblance to traditional Japanese emblems, so that I could say something like: "the artist had a xxxx in mind when he sculpted the kashira and band". I do believe the saya itself is ancient, but somewhere along the line the original fittings were lost. I wish I could know what they looked like. Johan

I apologise if my pictures are not well enough chosen. I had hoped they would generate some comment... Johan

Dan K, thank you. I do agree with your kind notion that the saya band looks like the sacred rope shimenawa. But the shide streamers are not cut as regularly as those on the kashira. They have a distinct staggered appearance. Also to Ed H, thank you, you are correct in what you said, but it so happens that I was fortunate to get part of the story of the katana from the previous owner. See, he had a swordsmith in Pietermaritzburg refurbish the koshirae. This smith specialises in Japanese swords, forged in the traditional way. He re-coated the saya with black lacquer and rewrapped the tsuka with cord. He also cast two menuki from an original he had. The previous owner then had a jeweller make fuchi and koiguchi with 925 silver. These are nicely made but merely engraved with a kind of leafy pattern. No tradition there! And no association with the kashira and saya band. BTW, the swordsmith did not do any work on the kashira and saya band - the previous owner had purchased the sword with them already in place. Thank you also, Brian, you might be 100% correct. Of course, if a fire could talk, it would probably say it never really liked having cold water thrown on it! Any more ideas? Johan.

Friends, I don't want to bother you all with a lot of text, as my question is simple. I received a saya, refurbished sometime in the 1990's, fitted with an ornamental band about two-thirds down the length of the saya, which seemed to me a kind of match with the kashira. It looks silver, but I'll establish that eventually. Please see the pics. I would like to know whether the band and the kashira are a true reflection/reproduction of some traditional Japanese emblem or design. Or is it just some blingy art creation that has no bearing on things nihonto? I can't go back to previous owners to enquire as that avenue is unavailable, but I do recall that it was said that these fittings were already on the saya and tsuka when they were handed for refurbishment. Please let me know what your is on these fittings. It would give me greater enjoyment of the koshirae to know the emblems seem traditional. Thanks. Johan

This pic shows a similar mei to mine. However, it lacks the "rai". I believe Nobuyoshi added "rai" later in his swordmaking career. I do have pictures of two papered katana with mei where "rai" is included. I have compared my blade's signature with these and, well, so what? I don't have the expertise to say they are a spitting image even if they look it!!! I'll stand down now and hope you guys can make something out from these pics. Any thoughts that come up with be greatly appreciated! Johan.

Another one, other side. Please also consider the pics I have already shown in this thread, posts #2 and #12 above.

These are supposed to show the "islands" or whatever.

These show the tang/blade transition, both sides. It could show you something?

This one is just to show the hamachi. The munemachi measures 2 mm and the hamachi one-and-a-half mm. You might also see that the hamon starts very near the hamachi. Please disregard the top of the photo.

Thank you, Steve, you have voiced an optimistic opinion (very much appreciated) which I hope might prove warranted! But let's not crack open the champagne yet, haha. Following on what you and others have said, I'll post pictures below. Johan.

Brian, the areas of pitting visible on the blade corresponds with your notion that the sword could have been rusted. I think I might venture a little bit further in my quest and prepare a number of pictures as best I can. Pictures bring out more than can be described by mere words. Let me get to it. Cheers. Johan

So, taking Brian's advice to heart, and doing a lot of assuming and guessing, and keeping in mind that the guidelines used are not exact, then what I have gleaned from you all, is that my katana blade shape indicates probably the kanbun/empo era. The smith that made it is not one of the good smiths, the reason being that little "islands" of inner core are peeking through the outer skin. That's the mark of poor forging. It seems the blade had not undergone multiple polishing. (The one proven instance of polishing being the work of Gus Vollmer in the 90's.) The dating on the tang, although probably false, is surprisingly accurate against the background of the kanbun/empo assumption. The Nobuyoshi mei cannot be entertained as genuine, seen against the poor forging signs on the blade. Nobuyoshi's working years, however, also surprisingly fits into the assumed era. I had wanted to post more pics in order to find opinions on matters like tradition, school, and smith, but that does not seem to be worthwhile under the circumstances. If my optimistic assumptions above are marginally correct, this may be the end of the thread...? Johan

Brian, I accept that a warning such as you have given is necessary, as well as noteworthy, and it is your place to offer such words of advice to all who believe that the origin of swords can be pinpointed without doubt just by looking at the shape. However, if at the time of procuring my "Nobuyoshi" katana, I had thought I would not have a chance of engaging with other collectors and knowledgeable forum folks about the possible place of the blade in Japanese history, and that I would be unwise to become engrossed in countless days of conjecture, then I would not have taken possession in the first place. You say yourself that it is a natural inclination to put things in neat boxes. So I'm being my natural self, and loving doing just that. If my friends come to visit me in my man cave and ask me about my katana, I don't say "It's just a sword. Leave it at that. It's no use wanting to know about the unknowable." I say, "This is a samurai sword. The blade is probably in excess of three centuries old. It harks back to a time called kanbun or perhaps even enpo because of its shape and configuration....." Great fun, all this guesswork. Love it. Live it. Johan.

Thank you, John! Your comment about the discrepancy in dating is noted. Still, our sugata considerations are clouded by the possibility of the dating being incorrect, for whatever reason whether coincidental or fraudulent. If the dating is believed to be correct, the establishment of the swordmaking era is in a sense irrelevant. If the dating is suspect, everything revolves around the placement of the blade in its swordmaking era. It seems to be a bit of a catch-22 situation. Important to me is that you guys seem to agree that the blade sugata clearly points to kanbun era. If that is the fact, then all our thoughts and considerations about the dating seem only to have entertainment value. Anyhow, that's why I attach so much importance to what you all say about the my blade's sugata. If we have not done with that yet, please chime in! John, concerning the wood for shirasaya, I have it on good authority that poplar (Populus deltoides, the Eastern Cottonwood or Necklace Poplar) is the best choice for scabbard-making if magnolia (ho wood) is unavailable. Some say Alder also works. I have purchased poplar imported from North America. Cheers. Johan

Thank you, Geraint, it would not take much admonition to make me shudder & draw back from the shirasaya project, like in "Fools rush in...!" So I'll have to steel myself and sally forth. Yes, what you say is true, and the first thing I will have to do is get all my planes & chisels properly sharpened. But getting back to sugata, it now does seem as if my blade is kanbun, and that's before enpo, the era (eighth year) inscribed on the tang (fraudulently, it seems). However, from end of kanbun (1673) to the 8th year of enpo is a measly seven years. Surely that can't make a great difference. According to Paul Martin, "Changes in the shape of the Japanese sword" (2017), this type of construction my blade has, usually referred to as kanbun, was generally produced around the middle of the kanbun 1661-1673 to the enpo 1673-1681 eras. So who can criticize me (lightheartedly, of course) for asserting that the dating on my blade (whether fraudulent or not) is actually spot-on? The actual swordmaking era that the blade can be assigned to, and the dating coincide. So what does that imply? There seems not to be evidence whatsoever that my blade has to be older than 1680. Can anyone give me a reason to suspect that the blade is necessarily older? Please forgive this bantering, I'm just trying to think logically. Maybe I should have my wits sharpened at the same time as my planes & chisels!

Thank you, Brian and Michael S. Sorry for my late reply, I've been running around trying to obtain a piece of poplar wood to make a shirasaya from. (This is just by the way, I've decided I want to put this katana in a shirasaya and the only practical and affordable way to do this is to make it a project of my own. I've got the wood now and am in the planning stage.) Yes, Michael, I trust that my nakago is ubu, and that is why I'd like to get all possible knowledge out of the sugata that I can. The ubu also tells me that no one over the centuries has tried to get an alternative tsuka to fit the blade, or more possibly, that any blade alteration has been done, necessitating a second mekugi-ana. My katana has been "left alone" with its tsuka all these years. I will soon post more pics in order to enquire about aspects like tradition, school, and smith, after no more thoughts are given through to me on sugata by you fabulous guys! Thanks. Johan.