mdiddy

Very nice Mark! Hope I get to take a look in person sometime. Best. Matt

How about yakidashi and width of the nioi guchi. Zooming in on the 1st photo reveal both. Do they match with a shoshin example?

Ahhhh - very wise. Just call it what it is - Nihonto. Thanks for the heads up!

Given the distinct presence of France on the board, I thought this might be a good place for my query: I am trying to ship a blade to France. I'm pretty sure Nihonto and swords/knives e.g. are not prohibited from import/export (if I'm wrong, please do tell). However, I'm not sure what is the best way to label the contents for customs. How stringent are customs officers in France regarding 'weapons'. Are packages and/or contents known to be 'lost' depending on declared value? As well, can anyone recommend whether its best to ship through USPS vs. FedEx? Is extra tracking through FedEx worth the extra $$? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Merci beacoup. Matt

Noted gambler Amarillo Slim Preston’s maxim was "you can shear a sheep many times, but skin him only once." While I think selling an obviously low end piece for lofty prices is ‘skinning’ rather than ‘shearing’, I also think dealers represent the best in collecting. Consider the following: Japanese swords are a non-native item in America. They were not generationally developed by Americans as an integral part of society and are unnaturally here. How they got here gives the context to where the hobby is at and where it is headed: 1. 1st swords arrive turn of the 19th/20th century – collected by upper/ruling class, a lot in Northeast U.S. Eventually swords ended up in museums (i.e. Boston MFA), minor amount traded around. Low profit potential since most bequeathed to museums. 2. Majority of swords arrive as war spoils (call it what it is) mid 20th century – collected by all classes, low to upper (i.e. gun show to Compton). High profit potential. 3. Swords arrive as purchases from Japan by collectors in late 20th century/21st century – mid to upper classes (who can afford $000’s per sword). Low profit potential (buying at premium). There is no better incentive than $$ and profit potential to generate interest and accelerate a learning curve. The ‘bubble’ of swords that arrived as an outcome of the 2nd World War fueled the learning curve. I’m sure everyone here knows the story. Uninformed soldiers traded swords at extreme discount to relatively uninformed militaria dealers/collectors. Relatively uninformed militaria dealers/collectors traded swords to informed Japanese dealers at extreme discount, highlighting the demand for the resource as well as the need for knowledge of it. Some uninformed militaria dealers/collectors became informed and more successfully mined the resource. Now, the resource is all but exhausted, the market has matured, and prices are relatively inelastic (i.e. static $000’s since mid-80’s against shrinking demand). A few have collected all the resource and knowledge. I am relatively young and not to be cocky but probably represent the ideal initiate for this hobby and the shows – under 30, educated, employed, and thirsty for knowledge and materiel (start marketing your swords to me, please). I’m also lucky in that my family had a Gunto brought back by a family member and not sold to a motel buyer in the 80’s/90’s after considerable deliberation when the advertisements showed up in the local paper. Think about all the similar potential initiates whose families did sell out their blades/relics at deep discount; the non-native non-renewable resource was not naturally available to the next generation. That is where the future of this hobby in this country was won/lost and why interest now wanes. There are no great $$ to be made, the resource is not of practical usage, the resource is not of native significance (i.e. baseball, guns, cars), few know the story/secret of the great treasure hunt, and barriers to entry are stiff ($000’s, no common/collective knowledge of a non-native object, best info is in a non-native language). In my opinion, this hobby dies out in the U.S. as the generation that mined the resource dies out. A scant few will stay interested/become interested, sure, but I would not expect any growth in attendance at shows anytime soon. Ultimately most swords will end up bequeathed to museums or in Japan. The best pieces may continue to trade at Sotheby’s/Christies’s/Bonham’s but that relegates the resource to the upper/ruling class which even more still means swords end up in museums globally or Japan. I don’t want to sound too judgmental toward the generation that mined the resource. The timing was right, the opportunity was there, and they took it. Good for them. I don’t want to sound too judgmental toward antique/militaria dealers either. Dealers are incented by profit, the deeper the better. In addition to my day job, I actively trade antiques including the small collection of swords I have amassed and I’m certainly not interested in taking on loss so other’s can learn. But that’s the exact free-market physics that best incent one to learn in the 1st place and result in an efficiency of learning unmatched by reading books or placards at museums. Dealers’ quest for deep profits (‘shearing’ and ‘skinning’) are actually in the interest of furthering the collective body of knowledge because they more efficiently, through fear of loss, drive the capture and release of the knowledge that dictates the value stream. And they allow that knowledge to filter to a body outside a selected few curators/scholars, especially if they are loose-lipped (objectively, not unlike this forum’s free flow of information). It just sucks that in this case, the resource being traded is non-native and non-renewable. Did anyone see the news today that the Dallas art museum purchased the oldest painting of Michaelangelo’s? Obscene that a Western museum was able to obtain it. Maybe more obscene was the presence of an art-dealer who acquired it for $2MM, challenged with his own body of knowledge the accepted theory the painting was fake, and then sold it to the Dallas museum for an undisclosed amount. Historical threads from this forum detail similar events. This post has now become a thesis so I’m wrapping up. I'm still pretty new to this hobby (like 2 years?) so by all means please do question the above, but I don’t think you need to understand Japanese Swords or their artistic merit/appeal to understand why interest has waned/is waning; as Darcy put it I think you just need to assess economic realities. I personally find the shows enthralling if for no other reason than to talk to the old-timer’s about the great treasure hunt. That alone is worth the price of admission. What it must’ve been like to be at a Baltimore show, early-60’s when the Japanese dealers showed up with suitcases of cash. Maybe telling that story more and to a wider audience would be a starting point for generating interest. After all, that the story is in its final chapter is what I'm arguing is driving low attendance any how.

Here is a mei analysis to keep you busy. I don't like the extra long left-side of the box in 'Nobu' and 'Yoshi'. I do like how generally that would be the 1st stroke but in the legitimate mei's it is the 3rd stroke, same as yours it appears to me. I suppose a talented copy artist could have figured that out as well eh? Lots of other stuff to consider though like kiku, and kanji spacing to Jacques point. Hard to tell anything from your blade pics. Here's a link to the Sanmei.com example w/ flamboyant hamon: http://www.sanmei.com/shop_e/enter.html ... lang=en-us

Hey Nick, Can you show some pics of the blade too? That would help answer your questions I think.

Even with more than the limited info (pics + description) you have, a discussion on pricepoint would be arbitrary at best, but here are some add'l thoughts I would consider if I were thinking of purchasing this sword: 1. What I see: 60cm nagasa, shallow sori; masame hada in shinogiji, mokume/itame in ji, hada has a whitish tint? (could be lighting); hamon in nioi w/ togari; coarse hada, hairline 'something' in pic kag14. Would be nice to see pic kag16a w/o habaki. My unqualified completely subjective kantei is late koto Mino – hardly a magical guess btw. 2. I would want some detailed pictures of all 'old minor forging flaws' and I would reiterate figuring out what the hairline 'something’ in pic kag14 is. 3. If pricepoint is subjective we can still do some objective math. The tassle should be worth $100-200 and assuming an amateur polish at $50-60/inch X 24in would be $1200-1500. Subtract that from the price, so would you justify spending $2200-2600 for an out of shape late koto blade in very nice Kai Gunto fittings? 4. A picture is worth 1000 words, but for 3900 clams I'd rather inspect a sword in person. Assuming you and the seller are not next door neighbors then what's an afternoon's drive or a $300 plane ticket to be able to fully inspect. If I were spending my hard earned $$ then I would have no qualms with either. If you like it, then buy it and enjoy it. I think my point is get more info and complete due diligence on time-period/school/smith/condition yourself so you don’t feel like you missed something once you walk away with it (or listened to the wrong opinion).

Looks like a nice old sword in complete naval mounts. What's the length? Check out the updated pic. I'd want to investigate that if I were you.

Wakimono? Relax, enjoy yourself, and don't take any one person too seriously. Much to learn here, but learning from the group has a lot to do with others helping you identify where your 'opportunites' exist. Iterative learning may take awhile. Took the Japanese themselves hundreds of years...

Here is a link from Stein's site: http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/oshi ... kemits.jpg

Tamahagane is the traditional Japanese steel used in Samurai sword construction. It is derived from a different smelting process than modern mass production steel. It is more desirable to have in sword construction. In collector terms, Gendaito refers to modern blades (1876-1945) forged with tamahagane and quenched in water. Showato refers to modern blades either forged without tamahagane (using mill still instead) and/or quenched in oil or another substance. Thats the high level difference. The above was almost literally copied from this site: http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/showato.htm. It can provide further info to help you understand your sword. Hope that helps!

A close up picture of a section of the blade would be helpful, but judging from the extra pic it looks like it was probably handmade, but probably not tamahagane and oil-quenched. Essentially, showato not gendaito. Hope that helps (or at least doesnt hurt)!

I've attached a couple more pics I had, but I don't have any that are composite w/o tsuka. The blade looks pretty healthy to me and the yakidashi looks Shinto-style. Nakago def looks aged though. Hard to see yasurime. Fujishiro didn't provide any kanji, just listed the smith and provided some info on him (Enpo, school, lived in Edo, good sharpness). Maybe we could get a Toko Taikan scan from someone?

How about Tota YasuYoshi (Fujishiro - Shinto Hen - pg. 282 - Chu Jo Saku). Fujishiro states he was part of Omura Kaboku mon so would be Shitahara school. I attached some extra pics from the auction house that sold this. Hamon based on suguha, gunome present, muneyaki and some tobayaki can be seen so Soshu influenced. If you look closely can see swirling jihada with some coarseness. Seems to align with Shitahara school in my mind. Went for a nice amount at auction last weekend in Maine and was purchased by a lady...

That would explain why only 150K eh?

Jean and Jacques, Does a Masamune showing up for sale online at AOI indicate that the traditional behind-closed-doors approach to dealing top swords is potentially suffering at the moment? How often has/does a Masamune show up for sale much less online where everyone can view it? I realize this is off-topic per the original thoughts of the thread but now that we are here I'm just curious. Will start a new thread if needed. Thanks! Matt

Gary, Is this the correct forum/thread you are referring to? http://forum.japantoday.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=762691 Without even considering condition, there is a large amount of variance with respect to production method/quality of WWII-era made Japanese swords. Factoring in condition of the blade and of the market for these items additionally complicates valuation. That said, if your sword features a signature by the same swordsmith as mentioned in the thread above, then it certainly ranks at the higher end of the spectrum for WWII-era swords and would be particularly desirable for many collectors. The links Brian provided and estimates would be very helpful in further understanding. I would recommend spending some time reading/researching to better understand exactly what you have. Also, numbers like 5k-7k at least make me giddy so I'd also recommend trying to stay objective as you learn more and being a little pessimistic toward individual opinions while stressing an aggregated collective opinion from several different individuals. For what its worth, would you mind sharing some photos of your sword? Helps others here make an educated guess while critiquing/drooling over what they don't have. Also - 'Gimei' means that the signature/inscription is not by the swordsmith it indicates. Essentially faking. That would be bad for value and why you should research in depth to prove/disprove. Matt

Hey John, Could #4 be 'Aki'? Just my guess... Matt

Hey Mark - yeah, not sure why this smith would be gimei. Perhaps there were earlier generations of Dotanuki Munehiro? There was also a Munehiro in Echizen in Meireki, 1655 but signed Echizen kami minamoto. It just looks off to me though. From what I can tell its out of polish but not in horrendous condition. Shinogi present, one goob 8 inches from tip. I've attached the other pictures. Nice sugata. The auction is in Fletcher, NC, 20-30min south of Asheville. I was debating a trip there this weekend to inspect in person/bid but decided I would pass on it. It might be pretty doable for you. The auctioneer is Bagwell & Assc. There are a couple of left absentee bids on it. If you are interested, let me know, and I can forward the phone number or you can google it. If you pick it up I'll have to inspect it in person next time I pass through! Best.

Mickey, From your pictures your sword looks to be in standard WWII Shin Gunto mountings. These were the mountings (scabbard, hilt, handguard, etc) that the Japanese Army fitted swords with before and during WWII. Most likely this sword was picked up somewhere in the Pacific Theater sometime during the war, 1945, etc. Here is a link that will tell you more about the mountings and some of these swords: http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_002.htm The next question would be who made your sword and when. A big help with in answering these questions would be to remove the handle so that you can see the unpolished steel where a swordsmith would likely chisel his name. If you look ~2inches below the brass handguard you should see a peg. Take that peg out and remove the handle. Here is a link to instructions to help with this process: http://www.samuraisword.com/eval/evalsht2.htm If you choose to remove the handle then take some pictures of what you find on both sides of the unpolished area. Post them with the rest of the pictures and reply back here. That would help a lot in furthering your understanding of what you have. Thanks and hope that helps and/or confuses! Matt

Thank you very much Jacque and Koichi-san for your added input. Here is a mei comparisons and some noted differences between the one in question and the others. Edit: Deleted mei comparison - if anyone wants it PM me.

John, Thanks for the reply and extra info. That oshigata is very helpful. FWIW, this blade is at auction in NC this weekend. A better pic of the nakago allowed for a closer comparison against the mei you provided. Looks gimei to me and I don't understand the presence of the 1st two kanji (??shu) if the province Higo is called out afterwards. Also, here is a link to a wak by this smith: http://nihontou.jp/choice03/toukenkobug ... 0/150.html. The mei here seems to match the mei of the one you provided, but not the one at auction. I think I'm going to pass on this one but if anyone is interested let me know and I can give you the auctioneer information. He's very friendly, open to absentee bids (there are already a couple) and phone bids, and I've worked successfully with him in the past. Finally, I should note that I have not inspected this blade in person. AND, if anyone would still be willing to share pg. 626 from TT I'd love to finish learning about the smith. Thanks! Matt Edit: Deleted the mei comparisons. If anyone wants a copy PM me.

Would anyone mind sharing/scanning pg. 626 from Toko Taikan? I am looking for information and/or oshigata for the smith Dodanuki Munehiro and could not find anything in Fujishiro. The JSSUS database listed TT pg. 626 as a possible source. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Matt

Many thanks Koichi-san! Have you seen blades by this smith before?