Franco

If he's a well rated smith there should be info written up in Fujishiro.

Hello, No evidence of hand forged steel. No evidence of water quenched.

Hmm. It seems that were back to square one. Apparently, I can't even believe my own eyes any more. I'm going to have to break the bad news to the sword owner that he no longer owns a naginata-naoshi. He'll have to tear up the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon paper, and have Mr. Tanobe's sayagaki removed. He'll then have to tell the polisher that he didn't do what he did. All because Jacques says so. It's just amazing the lengths someone will go to, so as to never admit and accept when they're wrong and mistaken. “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” MLK Jr.

Jacques, your problem is that your infinite ego just can't stand that someone knows and understands something that you don't. Especially when you can't figure it out. Secondly, Jacques, I am not so rude a person nor impolite as to be so assertive as to ask and press someone about what is obviously a special talent. I have no right to ask, and neither do you! And if he wanted anyone to know ..... . Besides, how do you think he did it! Hmm, let's see, maybe he used magic polishing dust and water! Or just maybe; ability + skill + experience + patience + drive + time = Final result. Thirdly, are you now suggesting that perhaps I'm not being truthful, or perhaps that I have a vision problem or I'm blind, or perhaps that I'm too stupid to recognize the change from the old "before" polish to the new "after" polish! Or maybe you're suggesting that as soon as I left the room the shinogi somehow meta-morphed back to its previous distorted state. Now that would be magic indeed! Yes, Jacques. See how ridiculous this thread is becoming as a result of your obstinance and refusal to admit when you're wrong. Further, have you ever stopped to consider that even if someone knew something, why on earth would they share it with someone so brash as you! Good grief!

I can say because I saw the before and after. It doesn't matter that I don't know how. What matters is that this polisher knows how! Still digging I see.

It's all about the koshirae.

That is a great question. I wish I knew the answer.

You're right, Jacques, it is very clear. Which is probably why the NBTHK, Mr. Tanobe, and Kanzan Sato all agree with each other. And don't agree with you. First, Sato writes that "nagamaki" refers to the way these swords were mounted. Followed by "Therefore, nagamaki should properly be called naginata." Which blows the copies claim theory out of the water. Why? Because despite the marked differences in shape, they are still "naginata." Further, anyone reading Sato's article should realize that Sato is talking about blades made over multiple time periods encompassing a number of different shapes. To that point, when being reconfigured to other uses, katana, wakizashi, modifications would be adapted and customized to the individual sword. It was not a one cut fits all. Which accounts for the differences we now see in the boshi between the different types of naginata-naoshi. On the subject of "impossible to know." Again, Jacques, you are mistaken. When naginata-naoshi underwent a shape change there was a narrowing. That narrowing changed the appearance of the sword. When properly restored by today's polishers, excellent polishers will recognize this distortion and reconfigure the shinogi to give the sword more of the original appearance, as the maker intended. When it comes to nihonto, it's just when you begin to think you know something that you find out how little you know.

Note to self: follow established (published) definitions. Note to Jacques: you have been citing Kanzan Sato over and over, time and time again, in order to define and support your positions and thoughts. But, having read through the very pages that you posted written by Kanzan Sato, they clearly state something different than what you are saying. And, in fact, Sato supports the NBTHK's position and practice.

De·lu·sion /dəˈlo͞oZH(ə)n/ noun 1.a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions:

Well, Jacques, actually Nagamitsu's double boshi was on a National Treasure "tachi." Chikakage made this double boshi on the imaged naginata which at present is papered by the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon as a katana - naginata-naoshi. Mr. Tanobe agrees with that assessment. According to the sword's owner the polisher also agrees with that assessment. Real? Real? Don't be stupid. Stop digging! p.s. the original image I posted can be clicked on twice to get an enlarged image that shows a full boshi with kaeri.

First, the Nagamitsu with the same double boshi was designated a National Treasure sword. Secondly, I don't think that the aesthetics of the boshi mattered much to the samurai cutting down his opponent, nor the unfortunate person being cut down. Thirdly, Chikakage has been designated a National Treasure sword smith with more than 70 swords rated Juyo or above. I kind of get the feeling that he knew what he was doing. Don't you? Stop digging! Done here with this nonsense.

Jacques, for a scientist I find your position here to be quite closed minded. Tsk, tsk, tsk! The image I posted earlier of a naginata-naoshi that clearly, clearly, retains a bosh with a lengthy turnback, kaeri, was made by none other than Chikakage, student of Nagamitsu and forge mate of Kagemitsu, the two smiths presented in your latest post. By the way, that boshi is a double boshi. It has a double turnback. I later researched that and found only one example of a sword with a double turnback boshi almost exactly the same. A Nagamitsu. Does the fact that this sword has a double boshi have something to do with the FACT that it retained a boshi with a turnback following naoshi? Maybe. But it doesn't matter, unless you're someone attempting to recreate this example, technique. The reality is that after naoshi it still has a boshi with turnback. It is frivolous to argue and try to prove otherwise And, let me state this again. EACH NAGINATA-NAOSHI MUST BE EXAMINED INDIVIDUALLY AND INDEPENDENTLY IN ORDER TO SEE, SEE, WITH YOUR OWN EYES, EXACTLY WHAT REMAINS! What remains is reality. What remains is only evidence of what happened. Unless yakitsume is witnessed and presented in every single example, if there is even one exception, then the statement that yakitsume must be the result of every naoshi is false! t + f = f, 7th grade science. The fact that the NBTHK does not differentiate between the types of naginata when addressing this category of naginata-naoshi, instead placing all nagnata-naoshi in the same category hints to the fact that exceptions and variations are recognized. Why is this so difficult to accept. Heavy sigh ....

The one additional suggestion here is to use "strapping tape" which gives additional form, rigidity, structure.

So, this is what experiencing "Deja vu all over again is like." Here today, here tomorrow. Desire is the cause of suffering.

Jacques, there is no confusion. Naginata naoshi and naginata (zukuri) naoshi all fall under and into one category, naginata. Naginata are pole arms. Therefore, even when they have been modified they will all be recognized as naginata-naoshi. A nagamaki designation will only be given when there is documentation that a naginata was mounted as a nagamaki. Otherwise, it remains as a naginata. So, then, what is true? What is true will be determined by evaluating each piece independently. That, unless someone talks the NBTHK into redefining established definitions and terms. And as Michael has said here as well as others before, making blanket statements when it comes to nihonto should be approached with clear attention and caution. Had it been said, "naginata-naoshi (zukuri) will end in yakitsume," most likely no one would have batted an eye. Further, you used the words "real", "true", and "copies". Yes, there are indeed copies, but these words are suggestive that some of the "naginata-naoshi images and oshigata of" posted in this thread are just copies, too. No, they are not copies. The shape of these polearms evolved through time. They are not copies, they are true, and they are real! Words and language like "zukuri" are essential/critical to say what you mean and mean what you say.

Are you saying that the NBTHK is making the wrong call?

Jacques, I'll repeat. A naginata-naoshi can be modified at one end or both ends. Obviously, it is necessary to study both ends to see and figure out what has been done as time travel has yet to be invented to go back and see exactly how or why. Below is an image of a Kamakura period sword that was presented at one of our study group meetings. It was designated by the NBTHK as being a katana / naginata naoshi. While it may not be entirely clear in the image, this sword retained it's entire boshi including kaeri (tempering along the mune). It didn't take a big leap to figure out that this piece was modified at one end and perhaps not at the other, at least not much. The fact that it is tempered along the top of the mune gives some indication that whoever modified this piece tried to retain as much of the original sword as possible. Clearly that is not the case with many of these naginata-naoshi.

One thing to keep in mind when entering into the Edo period, Shinto in particular, is that many of the pieces we see will be copies of shortened and modified blades from earlier time periods. The question then becomes "is it live or is it Memorex?" That's where kantei comes in. There will almost always be clues that give the sword away. But sometimes copies will be so good that they fool even the experienced. It's only after the answer is revealed and discussed where participants will be kicking themselves for having overlooked some detail.

Nope. Naginata can be modified at one end or both ends. Each piece must be evaluated independently. A yakitsume boshi can and will be evidence that the sword was modified at both ends. There will be examples where the turn back is fully retained. You can call it an exception if it makes you feel better.

I could agree with a Ko-Bizen call here based upon these images. Nioi-guchi is what I would expect for a Ko-Bizen blade, but not for a Rai sword. Shape is a bit off for Rai as well. This sword looks tired to these eyes. Which might explain blank patches of hada. Bad reputation? Hmm. Opinions are opinions. They can be correct. They can be close. They can be incorrect. The sword confirms the mei and not the other way around. The sword confirms the origami/opinion and not the other way around. Going by these principles will generally keep you from getting into trouble. Buy the sword, not the paper/opinion. Desire is the cause of suffering. https://markussesko.com/2018/05/02/honami-koson/ https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/8660-honami-koson/

Have you checked to see if it is a lefthanded screw? Or perhaps a compression fitting?

"Bad swords hurt your eyes!"

Looks like a WWI era sword. Koto ... hmm, perhaps in someone's dreams.

Something to be aware of and keep in mind about cutting test swords. Arnold Frenzel would talk about the fact that cutting tests were often performed to test the integrity of the sword in addition to its cutting ability. Even then, flaws may not show up until later when the sword is put to polish. Ouch!