Kevin

Unfortunately we don't have a concrete list of materials used. All we've got are stamps and miscellaneous (and probably incomplete) sources. It would help research enormously if we did have an extensive database of materials that could be cross-referenced to stamps. However, firstly we'd need either some non-destructive method of testing the steel composition (x-ray diffraction??) or some method that used a few micrograms of sample. We'd also need the assistance of, for example, the metallurgy department of a university, which might happen if you got both them and the history department interested in the results. It would, for instance, provide the history lot with information concerning the flow of raw materials to sword-making. However, you'd also need lots of folk to volunteer their swords, which might not happen. The results would be interesting to study. :-) As for whether this is a gendaito or not - well I don't think it is and I for one would not sell it as such. Kevin

simple....i am not a purist....i cannot use the term traditionally made as that really upsets them so i simply call it as i think it is.......a hand made showato :D My head hurts! :D That translates as a "handmade machine made sword". :D Perhaps it might be an idea, for clarity, to divide the swords of the period into traditionally made (gendaito) and non-traditional made by a variety of means, including by hand (showato). The latter can then be subdivided, as in Fuller and Gregory, into their various methods of production. Though I take the excellent point by Chris, made just as I was about to post this , that using the terms 'traditional' and non-traditional on their own might be more helpful. Question is though, to follow on from that post, I presume that 'not stamped with a sho stamp, but stamped with another stamp' was meant. Otherwise, how does one distinguish between an unstamped handmade non-traditional blade and a gendaito? Do we have hard evidence of unstamped non-traditional blades that have a hada and a water-quenched hamon? Cos if they have that, the only difference is going to be in the steel used. Or to turn it around the other way, what evidence do we have that they are not gendaito? Sorry if I appear to be nitpicking, but I had 6 years of university tutors banging into my head "first define your terms!" It gets to be a habit of thinking. Kevin

Then what term do you use for the non-traditional blades that aren't machine made factory items, like your Kanetoshi? Kevin

I am puzzled - not for the first time. It was required by law that non-traditional blades should be stamped. Consequently if these blades aren't traditionally made in every respect and yet are unstamped, then the smiths were breaking the law, which risked the authorities descending upon them. OTOH, if the swords in question are traditionally made in every respect, then they are gendaito, they didn't need to be stamped and were perfectly legal. What is the evidence that these blades weren't traditionally made in every respect? Just curious. Kevin

Surely the second observation contradicts the first para. If the Kanetoshi is handmade, folded and water quenched but made from foreign steel or domestically produced western-type steel then it is, by definition, not a nihonto but a showato. However, it is not a machine-made showato. One would therefore deduce that not all showato were made by machine or oil-quenched, and the argument that they are is an over-generalisation; true in many cases, but not all. Kevin

But was that because such groups had easier access to tamahagane, and therefore no need to find alternative steels? Yasukuni, for example, had its own tatara. No problem of supply there. I'll keep my eyes open. :-D Oh agreed. They are non-traditional in some way, and therefore not nihonto. I was just pointing out that the construction of some (not most) was a bit more complicated that it might seem; one smith, by his own account, may have been using puddled Western steel in orishigane. There's also the reported reason behind the introduction of tang stamps, which suggests some were good enough for the authorities to fear that they could be confused with nihonto. I've an interest in the subject and the techniques used. That's partially due to me making a number of Japanese-style blades for martial artists back in the early to mid 80s and partially due to sheer curiosity. :-D Kevin

They were however also making their own steel prior to the war - in 1937, nearly 6.5 million tons of it, rising to nearly 9 million tons of it in 1943. I can't find figures for steel imports prior to the war though. However, unless we know whether a specific sword used domestic or imported steel, using the term "western steel" may have unwarranted implications. "Western-type" is better. Not all, surely . Sure, there were a lot that were machine made, such as the NCO swords, and factory production is going to be more prolific than other methods. However, not all showato are equal. There are still plenty of surviving stamped swords made by smiths. Slough has got more than a few listed as making both gendaito and showato and some were quite productive. There's that frequently quoted line about certain smiths making both good and bad. Now if they could make gendaito, they had no difficulty in doing a differential hardening using water - so why did they also use oil hardening? Perhaps we need to look at the steels they were using. Kevin

Hopefully this may shed some light on matters. Firstly, I prefer the term 'western-type steel', since it does not imply importation from the West. Japan had a good steel industry. In any case, importing from the West would have been impossible during the Pacific War. I'm not sure that I'd be too dogmatic about how the smiths treated western-type steels. Sure, most of those we see now wouldn't have been folded. However, the law requiring stamps was introduced in 1933 precisely because it was impossible to tell the difference between swords made traditionally from tamahagane and some swords made from western-type steels. However, the system wasn't fully implemented until 1940. That implies that some smiths were using traditional processes with western-type steels. It also suggests that some non-traditional swords may not have been stamped. I've also read a smith's account of forging swords from old railway tracks – it may be in one of Fuller & Gregory's books. The railway tracks concerned were made of Meiji period Swedish steel. The smith mentions carrying out controlled decarburisation in order to produce the core steel. I would presume that they used the orishigane process for this. It also suggests that he was using the steel to make swords with a traditional construction. Now the point about 19th century Swedish steel railway tracks is that they were made from almost pure iron from a puddling furnace (burns out all the sulphur, phosphorous and carbon) that is then put through the cementation process (baking with a given amount of charcoal to give blister steel) and subsequently repeatedly forge-welded to remove the slag and get a consistent carbon content of 0.7% - higher than many Japanese swords. Because of the process of folding and forge-welding they had an inherent hada. However, they also contained some manganese (standard railway track specification until fairly recently). Whilst manganese increases the tensile strength, wear resistance and hardenability of the steel (and, if I recall, the degree of through hardening), it also affects the likelihood of cracking in a water quench. However, if you can handle such a steel in the traditional manner, you'd wind up with a particularly vicious and very strong cutter. Incidentally, this wasn't new. The Chinese had puddling furnaces by the 1st century AD, long before the West discovered it. I'm surprised that the Japanese didn't have them. Tamahagane would have been an ideal feedstock and you could control the carbon content absolutely. Problems in water quenching have many origins, but a major factor appears to be the water. Very pure water works whilst hard water doesn't. Brine, which I've used, works very well by breaking up the vapour jacket that forms round the blade, as does agitation. Workmanship and quenching temperature is another factor. See http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=15177 for a discussion. However, there's no reason why a competent smith should not be able to water quench western-type steels unless they were utterly unsuitable (e.g. O1). They wouldn't, of necessity, have had to use oil quenching, unless they lacked the skill or unless they were using an oil-quenching steel. Oil quenching a water quenching steel results in crap. Bad heat treatment will wreck a good steel. As for the particular sword in question, I'd think it wasn't traditional in some way. However, not having it to hand I'd not even begin to guess how. Kevin

To follow on from Chris's comments, some alloy steels won't produce a hamon at all on differential hardening, because components in the steel prevent the formation of a hamon. A number of tool steels are designed to be oil quenched and will badly distort or crack if water quenched. The idea behind it is that oil quenching lowers distortion on larger parts or parts that need minimal distortion when hardening. Oil quenching also allows metallurgists making these steels to increase the manganese content, thus improving wear resistance, but also increasing the likelihood of cracking in a water quench. Oil quenching is therefore necessary. Examples of oil quenched tool steels are O1 and D2 which are also good blade steels; very wear resistant as well as holding an extremely good edge. O1 has been around, it seems, forever. The manufacturers have now introduced air-quenching steels as well. It is probably impossible to differentially harden these. Actually the presence of managanese is one possible way that you might check if a sword was made from tamahagane or, for example, railway tracks made of Swedish iron by way of a puddling furnace and the cementation process. Shouldn't take much more than a few filings from the nakago. Kevin

Hi Stephen I think it's a guy I know, in which case he's kosher. Leastways I know an Andrea who has an email ending like that who is into swords. He's on the Italian nihonto forum. Kevin

A traditionally made blade is made 1) using tamahagane 2) forged in the traditional manner, including folding the steel to even out the carbon content of the steel so that it is homogeneous 3) hardened using yakire with water as a quenching medium. Now if it is lacking in one of those requirements, it is non-traditional. Mill steel, for example, doesn't need the traditional folding because the carbon content is already homogeneous. OTOH mill steel might be folded 2-3 times because that increases the toughness of a blade, as indicated by a Charpy test. A non-traditional blade might also be quenched in oil; some steels (e.g. tool steels) are designed to be quenched in oil. Oil quenched steels have low distortion, which makes them ideal for tool making. Quench such a steel in water and it may break or crack. Kevin

True, Brian. However, in the case of UPS I'd given them a sword for export, as I had done on previous occasions. A few days later it came back, having been scanned and rejected by UPS. I also got a stern email telling me that they would not, under any cirumstances, carry swords. I had an exchange of emails with them, the gist of which was that I pointed out that on previous occasions they had knowingly carried swords. As I recall, they didn't specifically mention swords as banned in their terms and conditions. That didn't matter to them because in their view swords were weapons, and they weren't going to be told differently. A useful catchall, 'weapons'. UPS and I did not part on the best of terms and now I only use UPS to deliver birthday and Christmas presents to the rest of the family. Anyway, there's a very early thread of mine on the conversation. Not surprisingly, I was going to be quite specific about my requirements after that so that any firm carrying my stuff couldn't wiggle out of it later. It would be down in black and white, as explicitly agreed. Kevin

Different dealer. Well I would have thought that that description should have resulted in being blocked by EMS. Looks like things are a bit erratic and unpredictable in implementation, which is no help whatsoever if you're trying to get hold of your sword. Question is, is this ban being implemented by the wider EMS network? As I said, we don't have EMS here, but lots of people rely on it. Sorry about lots of edits and the duplicate post that I've just found. Just got rudely awoken by a toddler bouncing on me and yelling "UP!", haven't yet had the first coffee hit the system, and made a cockup with who was quoting whom. Can someone delete the first of these posts please? Kevin

Different dealer. Kevin

:D Glad to be of help. :-) Hopefully the info will be of use to someone. :-) I know that there are folks out there - not all of them on this forum - having difficulties shipping swords due to pretty nonsensical attitudes and paranoia, and not all of them are going to be able to take advantage of Stephen's help. ROFL :lol: Kevin

Oh dear. Looks like things are very confused. Can you remember how they described it on the declaration? I do know one Japanese dealer is now using surface mail or Fedex to ship swords because of the EMS ban. If you choose the former, your sword will take a couple of months to get to you. If you choose the latter, you pay over $200. Kevin

That would seem to be a very good idea, because the latter would impact a heck of a lot of people. Might be an idea to see what the terms and conditions of carriage are in the various countries where EMS is available. If need be, ring someone up to clarify terms such as 'weapons'. There is of course also the issue of insurance with any carrier. If you breach their terms and conditions of carriage, then you also breach the terms of any insurance. OK, not a problem if the sword gets there in one piece, but a very big problem if it doesn't. So EMS's terms and conditions need going over with a fine toothcomb indeed. Kevin

Oh, I know you've done a lot for people. :-) I may not often say a lot here, but I do watch and learn. :-) Kevin

It's had it. Kevin

The info might be useful for other people, Stephen, not just the OP. I do get folks phoning me up and asking who I use to ship swords. Had one phone me last week. I gave him the phone number and the name of a contact in the London office so he could sort things out. Kevin

It is. :-) Not that revolutionary either. They are a straight fine arts shipping agency. They classify nihonto as fine arts, so that's OK by them. That's from CEO level. When I was researching alternatives to the post and couriers, I wanted to make absolutely sure that there was no misunderstanding anywhere as to what they were carrying. They get around the 'not on passenger aircraft' by using the night flights of freight aircraft, hence the name. Kevin

Age? School? Tosogu not my field. Sorry - knackered when I wrote that, so not thinking. Day spent looking after our hyperactive toddler. Kevin

Well, there are apparently a few problems with using EMS. 1) On the latest info I've had, EMS are now refusing to carry swords, leastways to and from Japan. Whether this is a global decision is unknown. However, mention of it has come up before on this forum. See viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5726&st=0&sk=t&sd=a 2) If they are, and you slide it through by describing it as "Japanese antique" and the sword is lost or damaged, you're unlikely to get compensation because you'd be in breach of their terms of carriage. So you're out of pocket and without a sword. The same would be true of any carrier. 3) I haven't yet run across a postal service that gives 100% insurance. Royal Mail either limits you to something derisory or else the costs are higher than it would be to use a courier. EMS may be different. I wouldn't know - we don't have it in the UK so it is not an option. Since the UK branches of DHL, UPS and Fedex all refuse pointblank to carry swords, whether they are nihonto or not, out of the country, options are limited. I've found a method that works reliably, doesn't involve misdescribing the item, is trackable, offers 100% insurance, gets there in 2-3 days, and isn't much more expensive than, for example, Fedex. You can also get hold of a human being who will keep you updated and who will advise you on what you need to get around local restrictions legally. No, I don't get any brownie points or dosh for mentioning them. :-) Kevin

Contact these people: Nightflight International Building 80, Room 104 JFK Airport, Jamaica New York NY 11430 Tel: +1(718) 995 3750 Fax: +1(718) 995 3752 Have a chat to them, get them to send the person despatching it a waybill to fill out. Do 3 copies of a commercial invoice, if appropriate, including the correct harmonized tariffs - they can help with that. If it's an antique, include proof of it being an antique, such as NBTHK papers - you pay less duty that way. Get them to check on any further requirements Australian Customs have. They'll no doubt phone up their agent in Australia. When all the paperwork is done, Fedex or UPS the parcel to them. Fedex and UPS in the States don't appear to have a phobia about swords. Alternatively Nightflight may be able to arrange collection. 2-3 days after they get it, it should be with you. I use their London office. They are very efficient. You can also get 100% insurance. I pack swords in heavy duty cardboard tubes, with plenty of packing round them. About the only way you'd damage the contents is by rolling a forklift truck over it. Kevin

Someone just sent me these photos. Apparently they were kashira before being turned into jewellery. I know it may be a bit difficult now they've been mangled, but any ideas? http://ryujinswords.com/Pictures/DSC_0001%5b1%5d.jpg http://ryujinswords.com/Pictures/DSC_0003%5b1%5d_1.jpg Kevin