Kevin

Actually I'm not sure that the recieved wisdom - namely that sunobe-to don't have core steel - is correct. I have seen a showato that was unfolded but which definitely had core steel. Trouble is, the only way to demonstrate how common this is is to start destroying swords. Kevin

Thing to remember is that a modern steel doesn't need folding. Folding and subsequent forge-welding of the folded steel is a way of making the carbon content homogenous, like kneading dough. Modern steels already have a homogenous carbon content, so they don't need folding. Folding however is not the same as lamination. You fold individual elements of a laminated construction to get the carbon content of each bar even all the way through. If the carbon content in a bar is too high in one spot, the metal may be too brittle at that spot, If it is too low, it may not be sufficiently tough. You may, whilst folding, also deliberately burn out some of the carbon to give a lower carbon content steel that is tougher but doesn't get as hard. That would be the bar for your core steel. Having done all that folding, you then laminate several bars together by forge-welding to give a soft core and a hard cutting edge. Laminated construction can get quite complex. You could have a laminate construction with a soft core using unfolded bars of modern steel. However as far as I can make out, sunobe-to didn't have core steel - they were just drawn down. I may be wrong though. It would be quite possible to make a laminated but unfolded block of modern steel and draw it down to give a blade. Kevin

As far as I can make out it, there were a variety of methods but basically it wasn't folded but drawn down (a forging technique) from a modern steel - or a mix of modern steels - and either oil or water hardened. They may or may not have a hamon but due to the lack of folding they won't have a hada. Definitely not traditional. The simplest were made from leaf springs. Leaf springs make very good blades - I've sharpened and used a WW2 blade (a parang) forged from a leaf spring and they are very strong and pretty lethal. He seems to suggest that in some cases sunobe-to were made using orishigane as part of the process. He also seems to be suggesting that one of the reasons behind it was the susceptibility of traditionally made swords to cold fracture in places like northern China. Some of the alloying elements in mill steels reduce the likelihood of cold fracture, as well as increasing the hardness and resilience of the blade and possibly reducing corrosion relative to straight carbon steel. Kevin

I know this thread has been dead for a while, but it appeared the appropriate one for a follow on. According to a conversation that I had with our suppliers today, new regs brought in this month means that cashew lacquer and thinners can no longer be shipped by either sea or air from Japan. Apparently it is something to do with security and the fear of terrorism. My own thoughts on this are along the lines of "bloody stupidity!" only less polite I'm currently having a chat with a company with regards to sourcing cashew lacquer from them. The thinners is no problem - we've already sorted that. Kevin

Roy The UK branches of FedEx, UPS and DHL refuse to carry swords to foreign destinations at all. They consider them weapons. They won't even get out of the country. Parcelforce won't knowingly carry swords and if they have a claim for a sword they won't pay out on a claim because they'll argue it's breach of their Terms of Carriage. In any case, their conditions for insurance will exclude them anyway, as you've just found. In short, it is basically uninsured. They lose it, you are out of pocket and out of a sword. As for art shipping agencies, you can get 100% insurance. The package may or may not 'volume' - it depends upon how you pack it. From experience, if it does 'volume' it won't be by much. It will be there in 2-3 days for most destinations, you can get hold of a person in order to track it and they will personally email you the proof of delivery. Any hiccups and they'll phone you. Any problems with procedures, they'll help. On average, it costs me £100-£120 to get a sword to the US with 100% insurance, though insurance might be more expensive if you were shipping a sword worth fabulous amounts. OTOH, insurance rates will be lower if your packaging is known to be extremely robust. UPS would cost about the same and be no quicker and, even if they took swords and insured them, you're limited to £3,360 insurance. Parcelforce isn't much cheaper and can often take longer. Kevin

I didn't ignore the advice. If you read the OP, I'd already posted the letter before posting. Kevin

A very bad repro. Even if it wasn't a repro, there are grinding marks on the blade which, if it were real, means it would be best left alone because it would probably be irreparably damaged. The pitting wouldn't be good news either. Read up on things before you buy another. Kevin

Actually, I've generally found that if you refrain from doing something for fear of things getting worse, they generally get worse anyway. OK, there's such a thing as tactical thinking, but that's more to do with when to join battle - at a time of your choosing, on your own terms, and by your rules or no rules at all rather than respecting the opponent's rules - rather than a reason for not doing something. Anyway, something has already been done. The sleeping dog has just been poked with a pointy stick. Now I'm not sure whether my contribution on its own will do anything, other than make folks think. Then again, it is timed to coincide with the Government looking to make major cuts in Civil Service budgets, including HMRC. OTOH as I recall it only took three people to write letters to the Met Commissioner of Police to start the events rolling which culminated in Tony Blair being questioned by police. A small number of folks can have a major effect. Kevin

Ian, that had occurred to me. :-) In fact I cited Ebay's decision as one of the absurd consequences of the law. An outright ban would be unlikely. Firstly there is the problem of definition - you'd have to ban all curved single-edged swords, which would get any number of people very upset. Secondly there's the cost. Collectors and dealers would be entitled to demand compensation for loss of business and loss of the value of their collections. The Treasury isn't going to want to pay out money. I made this point in my original submission. Then of course there would be the loss of revenue from businesses that can't sell single-edged curved swords. Sotheby's stopped auctioning Japanese swords just ahead of the legislation coming into effect and moved their Asian Arts department to New York and Paris. Christie's would follow suit if there was a total ban, with a consequent effect on both Treasury revenues and the London economy. OTOH, HMRC is currently having to spend money detaining parcels that are exempt by wasting officer's time corresponding with their owners before releasing them. Right at the moment the Government is looking to cut down on public expenditure. That is an argument that would interest them. That and the political capital of pointing out that the law was only intended as tabloid fodder by the previous Government and was an example of rampant spin that has only impacted law-abiding citizens. Loss of revenue, costs to the Treasury, effects on the economy, opening cans of worms and making the other guy look bad are things that politicians understand. :-) All in all, it is a good time to try. And after all, changes can be made in this instance by Statutory Instrument. Kevin

Actually it didn't. The manufacturers retooled to make straight 'Japanese' swords, which were on the market, and on Ebay, the moment the legislation was passed. Which was predictable. In effect, nothing got banned. However Customs intercept all swords, even when marked as antiques with the correct tariff number and coming from Japan with shinsa papers, which adds to a layer of major inconvenience for collectors. The onus is then on the collector to prove the sword is exempt. Failure to do so means that the sword will be destroyed. The swords that were meant to be banned, however, sail straight through cos they are now made straight. Kevin

The current UK government appear to be interested in making a bonfire of New Labour legislation. With that in mind, I've just fired off a letter to Nick Clegg suggesting that he rescind the addition of Japanese swords to the offensive weapons list. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Anyone else want to join in and send him reasons why this was a bad law? Kevin

Hi Roy :-) How's it going? Sometime or other I'll get down to Cornwall to say "Hi!" :-) Well, I sell on Ebay cos it's the largest market going, though it is at the end of a chain of processes. First off, there's the mailing list. New stuff goes out privately and folks have a week to think about it and express an interest. Swords sell that way. After that, there's the website, and after a variable time, there's Ebay. I'd be rather daft to ignore the world's largest market and I do get repeat customers. :-) Folks get plenty of communication and they seem to be very happy, otherwise they wouldn't be coming back. :-) I'm probably very unlikely to make NMB part of the process unless its a sword that's particularly interesting, though if it is really interesting I'd be thinking Christies. The Nakajima Rai is something of an experiment, and rather at the behest of its owner. I rather suspect that I'll be withdrawing it shortly and sending it to shinsa. I have to think of shipping times and time to get through Japanese Customs in order to be at shinsa on time. I rather like to keep business and pleasure separate. :-) Dunno - there's something feels a bit off to me about me selling on here. It is too much like pushing business interests too hard. I'm not worried about feedback - I'm pretty sure it will always be good. I just don't like the feel of being so pushy that I'm turning everything into a business opportunity. That may sound daft, but that's how I feel, so selling on NMB is going to be a rarity for me and against my better instincts. In fact it is quite possible that the Nakajima Rai is going to be my one and only sword advertised on NMB. Kevin

Throwing away gunto koshirae reminds me of the fate of square pianos back in the mid-50s. There was no interest in them, so antique dealers gutted them and turned them into bedroom tables and suchlike. My parents picked up one in Minehead when they went out for a daytrip - Mum was a pianist who was missing having a piano, and this looked the job to her. The antiques dealer couldn't comprehend her not wanting it gutted. It cost as much as a pound of bacon. It is dated 1789 and is far more beautiful than the one in the Victoria and Albert Museum. It is probably now worth tens of thousands. Probably because so many were gutted that it now has extreme rarity value. Oh, and it is still in working order AFAIK and can be played. Give it another few decades and shin-gunto koshirae will be antiques. OK, so some folk may not like them aesthetically and many (though not all) were mass produced. So was the Model T Ford, and that isn't particularly artistic either. Would you junk an original Model T on the grounds that it was mass produced and not a work of art? Kevin

The problem is that Ebay have blocked certain categories from UK users. Anything that has 'Sword' or anything sword-related in the category is blocked, even if you log onto the US site. You can't get round it with a proxy using a US exit - I tried. They apparently check the registered address. If the registered address is UK, you're blocked. I've got round it by starting an American arm, just to get round the situation. All perfectly legit and within Ebay's rules. It means I can bid on whatever I want without having that hassle, and then get it shipped here. No doubt other folks have arrived at similar solutions. It also serves for buying from those sellers of anything at all who won't ship outside the US. :-) Kevin

Completely agree. And in the case of gendaito, they were intended to be in shin-gunto koshirae. A thought - give it another hundred years of folks junking shin-gunto koshirae and they might be fetching silly money for their rarity value. :lol: Kevin

Hi Nakamura-san. :-) Totally agree. If the listing hasn't got lots of good photos, you don't know what you're getting. It's not worth bidding unless you like gambling. Unfortunately that seems to rule out most of the private sellers and bring back swords, cos their average photographic skills are usually nil. I very rarely buy bring back swords on Ebay as a result - the photographic evidence on which to base a judgement is usually not there. So that means going for listings with lots of good photos - including a series of closeups of the blade - showing the whole of the blade in detail. However, even if the listing has got good photos, it is essential to research the blade in question, as well as considering each photo in detail. Is the mei kosher? Is there anything wrong with the blade? Go over the pictures paying attention to detail. Any flaws? Any hagire? How badly out of polish is it? Are you going to have to spend some money on it and if so, is it worth it? Sword and koshirae can be restored to tip-top condition, but is it worth it and can you afford it? Check feedback as well - any problems? If you still have questions, any good dealer won't mind running off some extra photos if you need them. I've done it myself, as well as having asked for them. Ask questions. I've had long conversations with a potential buyer before now - I don't mind taking the time cos I want someone to be happy with the sword that they buy. Where necessary, I've also asked questions of sellers. Finally, look at the returns policy. Some seller offer a 7 day inspection period. I do. That eliminates any remaining risk. You get to look at the sword in your hand. Other say 'all sales are final'. Any market anywhere is going to present risks. If you haven't got the knowledge, if you haven't got good close-up pics of the blade, or you don't pay attention to the details on a series of good photos, sure, it is going to be a gamble. As Nakamura-san says, your own study is important. Kevin

Seen something similar, a long time ago. Somebody found a katana neglected in a shed. The tsuka was wet and rotten and the blade rusted. He got it off the owner and had it polished. The blade came up OK, though the nakago was seriously eroded for much of its length. The wet rotten wood kept the moisture against the nakago, though the rest blade had the opportunity to periodically dry out, starting where the tsuka ended. It did look a bit odd - damned good blade and ratty eroded nakago, with almost as abrupt a transition as this one. However the guy was quite happy about having saved the blade. :-) Must admit that this one looks as if it may have had a bad case of chloride corrosion. If it has, and hasn't been dealt with, it's just going to go on. Just the smallest amount of salt is needed - it is a battery effect. A small amount in the wood, plus a lot of neglect, would do it, and ferric chloride is hygroscopic - it will attract moisture. As an example, I've just had to deal with a lump of sea iron my parents found years ago. It was very mineralised. However, despite lots of washing when they found it, there was still some salt in it somewhere, so it kept on corroding inside until it developed a split and leaked iron salts in solution everywhere. My father gave it to me. It needed a quick dump in a chemical bath to deal with the chloride ions. Chloride damage is a common problem for marine archaeologists, though it also affects coastal areas due to salt spray. Kevin

Why is Ebay so bad? 1) No checks on what is up for sale. For example, Ebay has neither the knowledge nor the inclination to deal with Chinese fakers. They make money whether the item sold is crap or not. 2) A large number of buyers who think that they can get a papered Koto blade in good condition and polish for $600. I had one rant at me “Cash is king” after offering me $200 for a sword worth considerably more. To which I responded “It sure is, and you’re not offering anywhere near enough. Go and learn about antique nihonto.” I got another rant by way of reply. I sold it later at the amount I required. 3) A disinclination on the part of most Ebay members to spend more than $2000 on a sword because a) they can’t afford it b) there are cheaper ones and they can’t see why they should pay more c) everyone knows that the expensive ones are rip-offs. 4) A bad reputation which effectively drives away both good dealers and more educated customers, and thus leaves the field wide open for bad dealers and idiots. I remember one member here (forget who) saying that he would never ever buy anything on Ebay. All of which makes it harder to sell anything but rubbish, which also drives away a number of dealers. I’ve had a Nakajima Rai, polished by Mishina, written up by the To-ken Society, with papers, in shirasaya with koshirae held together with a tsunagi up there for ages, on Buy It Now or Best Offer. The only offers I’ve had were derisory – a few hundred dollars. So now it’s off for Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa. OTOH, a sword in rough condition selling at the equivalent of £1000 will sell rapidly. It’s often said that we get the government that we deserve. I note that the attempt to get nihontoden off the ground as an alternative to Ebay totally failed because no one supported it. Perhaps we also get the market places that we deserve. Kevin

Peter - how disappointing. I'll amend my page to reflect the latest turn of events. I hope it works out at a later date. Ian - it is not that impossible. I've got a couple of swords coming back from shinsa shortly, followed by a jumonji yari and a naginata, and I am arranging to send two swords over to Japan for the next Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa on behalf of their owners. The trickiest thing is avoiding paying extra tax when the swords re-enter the UK. There is a bit of hoop-jumping to do there. The pound/yen exchange rate can be a pain, but the pound isn't as weak as it was a while back, and it may improve, depending on what the lot in government get up to with the economy. Kevin

Looks like poppy capsules. Kevin

I'm getting 200 of each done, largely to see if anyone wants them. Prices are £3.60 per screw and £15 per hatome. The screws aren't particularly cheap, considering they're small and just one up from grub screws, but you don't get a price break unless you have much larger runs of tens of thousands. At that sort of volume you could fully automate it and a couple of hundred would cost pennies to make. However, there is unlikely to be that sort of demand. :-) I'm thinking of doing other bits - not tsuba or menuki, because those are reasonably catered for, but things like latches, kuchigane, semegane and ishizuke. However, the last three involve metal casting, patination and in some cases gilding, leastways if you want to do it well. Latches would probably have to be made by hand to fit the sword concerned. Just an idea - however, the number of original items is ever decreasing and it may reduce the number of folks who break up one set of koshirae in order to repair another. Oh, postage with my items is always free. Kevin

Somewhere around I've got a kabutogane of that pattern. Hatome (the thing the sarute goes in) are very scarce. However, I'm getting a few made to the original specs shortly. That way folks won't have to pull one tsuka apart to repair another. If there are any missing screws in the koiguchi, I'm getting some of them made and patinated as well. PM me if interested. Kevin

Sure - no problem. I drew it to try and help folks. :-) Brian - don't mind a bit. :-) Still think I was a bit of a numbskull to use Paint rather than drawing it and then scanning it. :-) Kevin

Ah! It was a bugger drawing those with Paint. If I'd had any sense, I'd have drawn them by hand and scanned them. However, I had to do it the difficult way! And accompanied by much swearing. :? I really don't know how I managed the top half of the Minotogawa stamp - the bottom half though was fairly easy. About time I updated them with a few more stamps. Kevin

Well, you may have identified the market there :-) - and perhaps also for the flagellation of others. :-) Kevin