Toryu2020

To me the estimates are way too high on most of the items, there are some curious things in the write-ups as well. That being said there are some great looking armors here and several swords I should like to see in person. Looking forward to reviews from those on the scene... -t

Further - On the question of the tama and dragon - they did pictureque hamon and this is a possibility but my recollection is that in the Tamba n/k Yoshimichi school and I think Hizen Masahiro, there was a fashion for including a "Sun and Moon" in the monouchi. My thought is that this was pointed out to us as a kantei point. Of course my thinking is getting weaker and weaker these days so I could be wrong... -t

FWIW I think pre-1600 it is much more likely that ubu-mumei means the piece was for some arsenal or to outfit a large army. These swords might even have had the talismanic horimono engraved as part of the order, following the religious conviction of their leader or the region. This would especially be true if making swords for one of the large Buddhist communities and if the maker himself was Buddhist. There are many swords in shrines with dedication signatures - so while I feel that some may have made and offered up unsigned blades this was not a rule. We should also remember that making a sword for ceremony is different than dedicating a sword to the shrine, asking for good fortune. In the Shinto period I would echo what others have said, I think it more likely that things operated much as they do today, with a smith making three or more swords for a commission or with the odd unsigned blade laying around awaiting completion. I feel a number of sources have said as much. Clive -I think if it seen as rising to the level of Yoshimichi, I would be happy with that. There were several generations afterall and they had to do student work at some point and so if it is an early piece by a Tamba n/k artist it might not have got a signature. my opinion only... -t

Don Not a bad start. The first is interesting since it seems to use the ken-katabami mon, with just one plugged with brass. I wonder if you see evidence that others of the cut-outs were filled? Also of interest is the two plugs either side of the nakago-ana, could this have been mounted on a wall somewhere? The second does indeed match Dirk's motif quite well, i think better photos of each are in ordero say more... -t

異色ぶりがあり 　"Ishokuburi ga ari" is the phrase he uses. I believe it has a positive sense to it - the other evidence would be that he included these works in his magnum opus which I think is a pretty positive statement as well... -t

On the general topic of muneyaki I found a few lines of interest from Fukunaga Sensei; "Muneyaki is nie-deki, when it is nioi it is often referred to as mune-ba (mune-ha). Muneyaki makes the area where it is applied stronger because it will not bend and it prevents kirikomi being too deep. If the muneyaki is too strong however it makes the sword prone to breakage, so there are smiths who will try to erase it if they see it." and "Tobiyaki has nie in the center or nie may form the outline, if it is oblong we call it tama. Tobiyaki that are seen in the mune are called muneyaki or munetsuru. Yubashiri is where the jinie (has gathered up) and is strong in one area but the outline is fuzzy, akin to seeing the milky way in the night sky" and then this is the stuff that I get the most kick out of; "One theory of why munyaki came to be (more common?) is the practice of commanders encamped during battle would strike stones on the mune of their swords (hiuchi) as a sign of fortune, a prayer for luck in battle." We know that it used to be common practice for the wife to strike a flint as a purification or prayer for safety when someone left the house on a trip, so it was something like this but I cannot imagine this last bit would have been done. If I had to say it seems we've come full circle - what I take from all this is we need to look at how muneyaki is applied and in what era and in consideration of the school/work-style of the smith. As my Japanese friends would say "Case by case." Sorry John not sure we got anywhere closer to helping you with your sword... -t

OK so I am not arguing, I witnessed an argument between friends and what they said got me to thinking... I was curious as to what my references had to say about the quality of muneyaki - I had seen and read it was a kantei point but could not recall any discussions on the differences so I went digging. Specifically on the Rai school I found Tanobe Sensei describing the work of Rai Kuniyuki in his Meihin Katana Ezu; "in general the hadori shows midare in the lower half, especially the koshi. In the upper half what you see is hirosugu-ha cho with ashi and just as it says in the old books you see a lot of yubashiri in the mune, in most works muneyaki can be seen. It is the norm to see muneyaki in Odeki works such as hitatsura and choji midare but to show muneyaki in a gentle hadori such as sugu-ha cho, that is what is unique (outstanding) in the works of Kuniyuki. This is inherited by Niji Kunitoshi, Rai Kunitoshi, Rai Kunimitsu and Rai Kunitsugu." From this I conclude; 1. This sounds a lot like what has already been said about Rai works. 2. It was part of their work-style. 3. at least in this case, for this one writer, it seems it is a positive feature. 4. As Franco pointed out long ago, it is yubashiri or yubashiri-like within the works of this group. I have not found anything to suggest that they didnt know it was there or seeing it they wished they could erase it. I agree we cannot say with certainty that it was intentional but my feeling is that it was. I am not inclined to fight over it if there are other opinions. It seems in the few hours that this thread has been unlocked Chris clarified his view quite succinctly and I for one did not see anything off-base there. (not that youre waitin around for my approval) -t

Not Yoshisuke I'm thinking or if it is maybe it has been re-tempered too dull looking for Shimada. mho -t

Just to clarify - I put tempering in quotes because I understand it as an oft used word but that may not convey what is really going on. For English readers I think yaki is most often translated as tempering, and I know that tempering really isnt what is happening. The use of the two different kanji 足 vs 走 is from context, I agree I think this is a typo that was included in the orignal text. I have read thru the introduction to the Rai section, and Tsuneishi general description of Rai work (the section this little note was taken from). I really think he is just referring to the first line when he says "the aforementioned" and not to any statement he made earlier on. I really am hoping we dont skid off the tracks here as I am finding some very interesting notes on muneyaki, focusing on Rai work for now. Hon'Ami Koson describing Rai works seems to say; "There are yubashiri. There are muneyaki, muneyaki though that are strong yubashiri and not quite true muneyaki" He talks about yubashiri as the precursor to tobiyaki, a nie formation, but he also seems to be saying that muneyaki is very much like tobiyaki if not the same thing. So far no mention of the meaning/value of muneyaki, or whether it was intentional in Rai works or not. My interest here is to learn... -t

来物には　三乗派や粟田口一派にはみられない棟焼状態のあるさくが多いですが　これは実は棟焼でわなく　湯足りの強いものです つまり来物は湯走りの現れる程前記の系統より焼が強い訳です First off let me say that I find the questions raised by the discussion of great interest, just the kind of thing to get one digging down in the books for more info. If I had read this note from Tsuneishi previously I forgot it. His books seem to provide the best info for kantei and this was a bit surprising. Definitely have to see what other authors are saying about the presence of muneyaki and if there are opinions expressed about its value... -t

Randy - According to the Kamon Nyumon, a beginners guide, the Hyotan is associated with drunkeness (good fortune). A very famous example is Hideyoshi's sashimono of a gourd, he added to the number of gourds with each victory in battle until there were seemingly a thousand! There are a number of versions including the yatsu-hyotan mon (8 gourds) seen on your koshirae. Interestingly the book says that it was used by commoners but not by Buke families. Yet we see here the Genji-guruma mon alongside the hyotan and it is not just in the lacquer but is seen in the fittings. A most interesting case. Late-Edo marriage between persons of different castes? Impossible to say but trying to find out is going to be an interesting trip... -t

Awesome - a wonderful new world we are moving into. Well done Eric. -t

Sorry guys, not online all the time - Most certainly something lost in translation, since I am the translator. Will post the original Japanese text tomorrow. -t

Simon - Someone has either intentionally or mistakenly put an older blade in this saya. A nice sayagaki but you will need to evaluate the blade on it's own. More pics of the blade may help us help you. -t

http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/shinsa-information/ You'll find all the info on the Chicago Show and Shinsa via the link above, hope to see you all there. Chris et al - Since this is from the general section on Rai workmanship and not an article about the unfortunate appearance of muneyaki in Japanese swords - I think he is just stating the facts as he sees them and not aiming away from any one theory or other. Also since he is talking in comparison to the earlier Sanjo and Awataguchi schools, I think he is saying their "tempering" is just so strong in comparison to those schools. -t

Interesting discussion - I for one look forward to seeing the sword in Chicago. On the subject of muneyaki, I always find myself referring to Tsuneishi's Nihonto no Kenkyu to Kantei. There are priceless gems on every page. In the section on the Rai school we find; "Within the works of the Rai school we find many works with what looks like muneyaki, something not seen in the earlier Yamashiro schools, the Sanjo and Awataguchi. This muneyaki is not that at all but is in fact an expression of yubashiri. In other words in the instance we see this yubashiri it is because the "Rai yaki" is just so strong" So here is one writer at least that doesnt see it as a negative... -t

Exciting stuff!

Robert - I have to agree with Malcolm, my very first thought looking at this was habiki. Then I read your description and it bears that out. Gekken as he mentioned involved "hard training" and you would be surprised at what those tough little guys could do even with a long sword. (at that time especially with a long sword) I would be very surprised if it has hamon, but certainly it must have been hardened. I personally would look into it's history, look for other examples, nail down just what it is before looking to polish it. mho -tch

Nice grouping, very kind of you to share, -t

THANKS JOHN!

Our complaints department - and before you leave don't forget to pick up your video!

more distractions...

I started out to look for saya-dome-ana but quickly got distracted...

lets try this...

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