Toryu2020

Hankei is a good guess.

Can we at least know the period?

So right time period wrong road haha! I am going with Chogi - and I would like to see the yakitsume if that is possible...

Alex - we do Zoom Kantei and welcome Brazilians, Canadiens and even Brits!

Good stuff ! I have no real plans Ken - just wanted to create a space where folks could talk about MA, using live blades and god forbid antiques! without getting yelled at. I am not limited to swords so why should this spot be? Have at it guys this can be whatever it wants to be no moderators here... -t

I would say Kaneuji himself - and would ask, is this ippon Kantei or?

WOW! I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. First off Riv - I was in the Boy Scouts and a lot of my early childhood friends were Catholic, I never witnessed any abuse. I lived in Japan for five years, specifically to study swords, I went to four Kantei-kai a month and visited many collectors in their homes, I never witnessed the abuse you describe. I say again I am sorry this happened to you, we welcome your "controversy", I think if you reach out we can help you gain a positive experience with the society right here in your backyard. I am not sure some of y'all understand the two kinds of Kantei, based on above comments. I like Jaques, even tho I'm not following this suriage thread, I like Jussi, and Like them both I try to do a little sword study every day. If youre going to play hardball in the big leagues you need to train like Ichiro, if you just wanna play sandlot that's great but don't hate on the Big Leaguers. Shijo Kantei or paper Kantei is the exercise where you look at oshigata and based on the descrition of the sword try to determine who made it. This requires you to learn the vocabulary and the various styles of hamon. It teaches you how to describe jigane in words but doesn't do much to teach you jigane. Therefor someone who studies from the magazine may in fact have a difficult time with Kantei in hand, even tho he hits the correct answer each month in the magazine. Kantei from photos is a fools errand. In hand Kantei is the best way to learn shape, size, weight, curve, jigane and hamon. It is the way swords have been taught to students for generations. My teacher is a sword polisher in the 24th generation of his family business - lots of technological changes over those generations but the game of Kantei has changed little. Remember the artists are all pretty much dead, there is no more work coming from Masamune, so the material we need to learn is pretty much static. There are new tools available to us and exciting things are happening, I believe all this new technology will help. However having been raised in the old school, I have a deep appreciation for it and do not see it getting replaced only enhanced. (forgot to add; studying jigane is pattern recognition, something happens subconsciously that helps you to recognize origins, BUT you need to see 1000's of blades for this to be meaningful...) There are guys who recognize swords in hand that cannot navigate the Shijo Kantei - cause they don't have the vocabulary or they don't understand the game. The game. Kantei is a game, it was an entertainment for courtiers that became entertainment for warrior that is now an entertaining game for us. If you don't play you don't understand the rules and the tricks and the skills and it might be easy to criticize others who do or those who don't. In Shijo Kantei they use certain expressions for certain schools or certain artists, when you understand this you will come to "hear" the hints that the teacher is giving you. In in hand Kantei there are certain conventions, usually five swords, usually one is very old and very special, sometimes that sword is in the number one spot, sometimes it is in the number five spot. Since it is a teaching tool they like to focus on textbook examples (studying gimei, gibutsu, flaws, rust, and oddball swords does not teach you what you need to know) sometimes, sometimes they will throw in a one-off piece by a smith that looks little like their usual work, but in this case there is almost always jigane, hamon, or something that is typical of the artist and if you spot it you get the correct answer. Wrong answers are more Fun! The judges hints when you pout in a wrong bid help you to see the sword in the same way he does, it teaches you what is appreciated and what should be emphasized. If all youre interested in is the points, and seeing your name in the magazine, you are selling yourself short. Are you a "connoisseur" - the connoisseur's book is organized in a very specific way. This is the way you need to organize your thoughts on swords. I like to think of it as circles - the major areas of production are larger circle with more artists, more influence, more production and longer history. Understanding where these centers are, in time and in place, helps to assign any given sword to its proper spot. The closer you are to the center of the circle the clearer the influence and the clearer the work. Therefore there are swords that cannot be categorized. this is not the fault of the shinsa team - there were country smiths, lying between the large centers of production that didn't produce work that was clearly from any given tradition. They could still be good swords but just can't be assigned to any one group or artists. This is why Bungo Takada and Kai Mihara are popular pigeon holes they lie between major centers of production and show influence from outside - if the sword is kinda "in-between" then maybe it is from one of these in-between schools. We have a sword show and shinsa, here in the U.S., next weekend! Come on out y'all and see how it works. Come see me for an insiders view. Buy me a beer and I could go on ranting like this for days. Organizations are in flux, the hobby is in flux, the community is evolving, the generations are changing, but organizations are NOT OBSOLETE!! Support your local sword club! -tch

Rimbo - Buddhist Wheel of Law...

Part of the leaf - not part of the acorn...

It is an acorn, mho, as you can see others more clearly delineated, think of the stems as lying on the ground in a jumble, one on top of the other. I think then you'll see the artist has lots of room to include or omit parts, which we as viewers can fill in with our minds eye... -tch

A new area for us "sword swingers" to discuss, weapons, hoplology, martial traditions, famous swordsmen and techniques. I am a member of various other forums on the same subject, as I am sure many of yall are. Still I do not mind revisiting old ideas, since this is our favorite subject and the study of sword and culture is the warrior way! -tch Shichi-Dan MJER

I second the vote for a "Warrior Class" thread - And Peter et al - I repeat; "The NCJSC does monthly Zoom Kantei, all participants have up to two weeks to submit bids for feedback from the judges and then all are lead thru a multi-choice quiz (ala NBTHK/AB) on the day of the meeting" The more folks that participate the better these classes will get, so again support your local sword club! -tch

And I was thinking it was just me And my sweat was somehow corrosive!

Question for the fittings artists and collectors - have you ever seen an antique tsuba with wear at the two o'clock position where a swordsman's thumb would contact the tsuba? I'll include photos below of two modern tsuba that have seen a lot of practice and a lot of wear. Funnily the kurikata seen did have white metal showing but since it has been resting all thru the pandemic the patination appears to be returning all of its own... any help appreciated, -tch

So Mark I would ask can their be study without collection? That has been my path - one can see good examples in hand and not have to own them - (in fact this is how most Japanese learn) - how might you fire the young imagination to seek study of Japanese art and history without requiring a piling up of stuff? Books even can largely be substituted by digital resources at this point. How would you alert folks to resources they don't need a lot of resources for and to persons (albeit older) with the resources and the time to share? -t and if the answer requires several thousand words I am OK with that...

For the past thirty plus years the NCJSC has offered in person , monthly show and tell where people bring in new acquisitions for appreciation and discussion, for the past year the NCJSC has presented three ways to study kantei; in person in hand at our meetings, paper Shijo kantei in our newsletter and monthly zoom kantei very much like that done for the NBTHK. (note we use a little known Japanese program that ranges thru all periods, schools and artists not just the top five) We have also started to broadcast our in-person meetings on Zoom, so out of towners can see and learn right along with us. We are approaching the end of a year in which the theme is the Major Han in the Bakumatsu period - focusing on the history, people, art, swords and fittings of the various fiefs vying for power at the end of the Tokugawa period. Our members set the theme. If this interests you please become a member - our newsletter is now 100% electronic and there are no added fees for overseas membership - if you read this and do join let me know and I will see you get all the electronic back issues from this year... -tch

Jeremiah - Laughing at that last line not the post in general. Let Nick Kolick, Fred Geyer, Bob Benson, Jim Gilbert and others know how you feel - if Nick can't do presentations we know others who can - I will say it again - without feedback these organizations are going to do little or worse think that everyone is happy. I wasn't happy with the speed of my education so I moved to Japan - I am hoping to bring what I learned to students here who cannot make that move - I am happy to share in any discussions - also I am a poor man - I learned early on you cannot own everything (anything really) - lets start banging on some doors, I think people will share and I think the NBTHK will step up if we put some pressure on them. Po jit tibu Yaro! -t

Thomas Buck Tsukamaki.com I think? not sure about Europe though... -t

Well, like the way you think - what I am wondering has anybody seen an antique that show wear anything like this? Patina lost and the regained over time? I love a puzzle...

Cool stuff!

One of members was asking the same questions and one of the sources that happened to pop into my head is nihonto.com - Fred has been president for years and was writing articles every month for the last twenty plus - many of those articles are on his website (under ARTICLES) and they are illustrated with Juyo level sword blades and oshigata. A great reference if you are looking for info on a particular artists or school. He recently re-did the website so not all the articles are there but if you have someone in mind I am sure he would send you his write up if you asked... -tch www.nihonto.com

Thanks Mark Great info - not paint, I think you can see a kind of grainy surface to the rest of the plate that has not rubbed clean in that first photo, Mind you this is near daily practice for more than ten years. This is my mogito but funnily enough my shinken tsuba has similar wear, both tsuba are modern. Have to wonder if all the sake' in my system is making me "chemically unfriendly" toward tsuba!! -t

I didn't say I didn't remember - I said or meant "I don't know about this having any connection to..." and please we used to have to drive 30 minutes out of town to the airport terminal just to play pong and when our five bucks in quarters was gone we had to go home!