AntiquarianCat

Would anyone know if and when shinsa will return to the United States and which shows might have them?

Thank you for the example Adam. That's a nice sword, I can definitely see some similarities with the masame and itame and the hamon. It makes me wonder if both are influenced by a similar tradition. I guess the biggest difference I see is that this sword’s large nagare and masame structures seem more prominent... Or perhaps that's just a trick of the light and optical illusion because the small grains are not prominent. That is very interesting indeed. I know very little about koshirae so I assumed the menuki were just missing and those holes were just damage (even though that doesn't seem to be a typical way metal exibhits damage) but this sure does sound like your description of satsuma koshirae. It sure looks like other examples I can find. It's a shame the precious metal inlays are nearly gone in mine, but I guess that gives is a wabisabi vibe which fits in with an antique so it's not all bad. Deffinitely glad I grabbed this sword.

Hello Everyone, thanks again for the advice and sorry for putting off replies. I’m sorry Gueraint, I misunderstood your previous comment and thought you meant a polisher reshaped the Kissaki by moving the Yokote forward. Yes, this definitely is interesting, I had presumed Kanbun (cut down for some reason) because I wanted to keep my expectations from being overly high. That said things like the boshi did remind me a bit of of koto swords I've seen and combined with osuriage did make me wonder if it could have been older. I guess I got lucky, I’ll definitely be reading on what was suggested. I'm not experienced at judging these things but I think nearly all of the original nagako is gone: I took a closer look and it seems that at the far end of the nagako are very worn yasurime at a much sharper angle than the posthoc looking ones that are on the area around the lower ana (and stop well below the higher ana). That makes me think the nagako has been shortened more than once, the lower ana is not original and probably neatly all the old nagako is gone. I hope this photo depicts what I said; I just moved and my camera is in a box somewhere so apologies if the image quality is low. Thank you for pointing me in that direction. I've never held a Yamato blade before so no wonder I couldn't recognize something in that style be one. Now that I pay attention, this does sound like the book description of nagare, and I see masame in places like the hamon and near it. I'm sorry, I am having trouble removing it. From the looks of it, they hammered habaki’s ends in after they shortened it to keep it from falling off but now it's stuck. I'm not sure it there is a way to get it off without damage?

I should probably clarify my last comment about the kassane by saying I meant the definition that uses mune width. Also, I took a few more photos of both sides of the boshi, I'd left the other one out because it was somewhat out of polish but here goes... It does look like the dense boshi pattern extends past the kissaki, which does fit what people told me about it having been moved forward. Is that a typical way of shortening a kissaki? Especially in pre modern times? Also, would the boshi, especially the one on the lower image be an example of kaen? Thank you again everyone for all your help.

That's true, although I feel that's just an asterisk so customers can't get their money back. Also if these swords are being produced in large amounts then I'm sure they are ending up in the market elsewhere, probably even more brazenly passed off as the real deal.

Sorry, I gummed up the photo. Anyways it takes a lot of nerve for a seller to spin what at best is an acid bath as a legendary sword.

Also something else I’ve found disturbing is that many eBay sellers, even some with good reputations, will try to pass off fakes and problem swords onto people they deem “suckers”. Case in point an American eBay vendor who is well regarded, isn’t Komonjo or Showa22 and is a bigger seller than either contacted me when I was even more ignorant than I am now and tried to sell me this mess as some legendary Gendai work. Apologies I didn’t save high resolution photos but even these should show enough. Maybe it was a super shoddy showato that took a very long acid bath? Or possibly just a fake. Anyways the lack of any habuchi and the fact the Nagako is a mess made me not bite but had it been a Komonjo I probably would have been suckered into biting, thinking it was gendai. It’s honestly a miracle that I wasn’t had by a fake when I was more ignorant. I wonder if it’s possible to do things about the eBay sellers selling fakes (I never found an option to report) or barring that for the more experienced collectors to put together a guide on warning signs since they’ve gotten much better at fakes than the stuff listed in old guides like jssus.

These are pretty evil fakes, the proportions aren’t horrible, the Kissaki even looks okay, although the boshi seems off. The way the light glows in photo one even makes it look like it has a weak nioiguchi so if you’re sleepy at first it doesn’t trigger the reptile brain for fake. It’s only after you get to the third photo and see that hideous Damascus pattern that many fakes have that the base part of my brain starts snarling. This one is even more convincing in low res photos except it looks off, doesn’t really have a nioiguchi (pretty sure that Hamon is an acid wash), or nie, and the Nagako is a mess. It’s marked as an antique and I’m sure someone bought it thinking it was a Nihonto. I wouldn’t have brought this up except it’s filed as “antique Japanese” From the looks of things dozens of inexperienced collectors have bought these swords thinking they have an old masterpiece. I wonder if this could be Changtian swords and if anything can be done since I’d rather new people not be put off from this hobby due to a flood of improved fakes.

You could buy some from the Lohman company, it’s worked quite well and not that expensive. I think a lot of other expert restorers/polishers sell good uchiko as well.

I must have been sleeping when I wrote this. I meant towards the cutting edge aka away from the hada. Embarrassing typo. Anyways Sho-Shin still has good examples. I’ll let people who know better than me analyze your sword. Also seeing as how your sword is completely out of polish and rather abused (and ergo no need to worry about wrecking a polish), maybe you could rub it with some of Fred Lohman’s uchiko. The archives linked to here describe how to use it safely in out of polish blades by using a monodirectional stroking pattern. I did what they said with my atobori carved sword (I probably won’t polish) when large swaths of it’s hada were almost totally obscured by being out of polish and now they’re visible and you can even see the nie crystals. I guess if you have a beat up sword and you have good quality uchiko and you use it as directed it might help.

Ashi also means nioiguchi projections extending towards the hada, sho-shin has many examples. I wonder if this could be a kazu-uchi mono with a “cleaned“ nagako... or maybe I’m totally off(I almost certainly am) and it is a WWII era.

PM sent for #1, seeing as how the old tsuba on that sword I found is on its last legs, I’d best get a properly sized replacment.

Hello Robert, if you don’t mind my asking what are the best tells for gimei? The signature looks oddly fresh, unweathered and deep for an old sword; would that be part of the problem?

I’ve been playing with how to photograph Nioiguchi. I like to point the sword to a bulb/lamp above it, with the light falling directly on the hamon. When it works it glows like this.

Hello everyone, I’d like to retract my claim about the Kasane being wide, it’s only about 6.5cm (I don’t have calipers which makes precision hard) whereas the Muromachi blade I’m using as a point of reference is just over 7mm. It’s more that the shinogi not being high makes the kassane look thick. As for JP: I completely agree, I’m still learning the ropes so the shape having changed makes it all the harder to pin down. I haven’t studied a kanbun blade in person in the past so I don’t have a gut reaction as to how well this fits. I’m not sure but the Nagako makes it look like it lost some of its curvature. I wonder if this could have been a cut down Momoyama/keicho since those are described as being rather large, with longish kisaki and not much curvature? I’m definitely going to take this one to a shinsa once those come back. And Christian: In some regards, like the Kisaki and it’s hakikake Boshi, the type of cold toned hues this takes under a daylight temperature bulb and small wood grains accompanied by larger coarse grains, this does remind me more of the Muromachi Bizen sword than the Mino style Shinto sword I owned which had much more even Hada and warm toned grey look; I’d just assumed that was due to this being made in a different part of the country and a couple generations earlier but maybe there is more to the looks difference than I though. That said, this sword, despite being a cut down, feels more substantial than the Muromachi one(mihaba is a bit bigger for instance). Maybe that’s just because this one was larger to begin with? I guess I’m still pretty confused as to what I have. Kanbun? Cut down Momoyama? Or something else? Thank you again everyone this thread has definitely been good food for thought.

That is very interesting, so if I read your analysis between the lines right, it sounds like an implication is that this possibly could have been a large, pre kanbun sword that’s been cut down to losing its curvature and looking kanbun like, and having had its kissaki reduced in size to fit edo period conventions? Yes the Shinogi seems somewhat narrow compared to some other swords I’ve held, and there are some of those circular woodgrain patterns on it. I’ve read that isn’t too common in Shinto but I assumed this was just one of many exceptions. And thank you again Geraint, Ken and all the experienced collectors sharing their knowledge with me.

Thank you for the help and advice Ken. I guess I still have trouble telling itame and mokume apart whenever they’re remotely roundish. Would I be correct in assuming a classically trained polisher would charge about 3000$ to polish this blade? Also, I don't have a shirasaya for this, which adds to the moisture damage concerns I had. Also much of the silver inlay on the Fuchi and Kashira has fallen off and nearly all the gold on the tsuba, save for a bit on a few of the animals is gone. I worry that if I'm not careful, it could be all gone in the future.

This is another photo of the large hada structures that start midway up the blade (picture 4 in my 1st post is another example). Is this what they refer to as "coarse"? Also as an addenum: the motohaba is 2.9cm and sakihaba is just under 2cm. The kasane seems fairly thick. Both of which I guess fit in with a Kanbun period blade.

Oh, and also this is the first time I’ve owned an old koshirae and the tsuka feels a bit rickety. I worry that if I handle it too much it will deteriorate, or the remaining bits of gold on the tsuba will fall off. I’m not sure what I can’ do to keep in in good condition apart from keeping it in a dry environment? Could Lohman or someone else do conservation work on the tsuka and saya without it losing its originality? Also if it helps at all with the sleuthing, I've attached photos of the torokusho and export paperwork. Thank you again everyone.

Hello Again, I grabbed this sword because I thought the old Koshirae handsome, the blade was mostly in polish and didn’t have many kizu, and it was at a good price. The downside is its lost its signature due to O-suriage and while I’m sure I’m looking at a Kanbun sugata, I’m not finding it all that easy to pin it down to a school/region. Very little curvature for sure (8mm), even compared to the sword Mr. Benson said was Bizen Muromachi which was not terribly curved. What curvature it has seems to start early, although I’m not sure just how much losing close to 10cm in length might have affected the shape. Nagasa length is still 66.2cm despite having been shortened to lose of much of the original nagako. As far as hada goes it looks like it starts with komokume and then further up the blade are large structures I think are some type of itame with small grain inside, often bordered by dark nie grains. I’m not sure but it looks a bit like the description of Echizen or Musashi hada from Connoisseur’s. Also the Shinogi has some roundish wood grain. The Hamon I can’t tell if it suguha or komidare, it’s straightish but wobbles a bit, might have hotsure. The kisaki looks like a chukisaki with a hakikake boshi. Nagako has katte sagari that seem to disappear above the first hole. So I guess my questions are: Am I correct in assuming this is a Kanbun Shinto? Would the sword having been produced near Edo be a reasonable guess? And is there any point in taking this to a shinsa once they return to America?

It looks like the yokote is missing. Is that something can happen due to extreme abuse? And is that a fatal flaw?

I read somewhere (I can’t remember) that if the hamon starts with suguha that a possible sign of pre Shinto make. Is that true at all? And if so is it just a weak association?

Since I’m a beginner is it okay if I ask for a hint? What is the sori type and how much sori? If it is saki, could it be terminal Muromachi? If not and little curvature I’ll instead guess Kanbun. The start of hamon is straight, that’s a pre Shinto tell isn’t it? Also are those crab claws? If those are claws am I looking at something related to Bizen?

I’m probably speaking from a position of ignorance and I also can’t read Japanese which constrains my ability to search but the only remotely related hits for kubikiri that google scholar gives concern tameshigiri with swords. If a reverse edged kubikiri was used to take heads then wouldn’t at least some chronicles mention it? Like Chinese records of the Imjin war talk about the Japanese using swords on people, and hacking off noses as trophies but don’t mention a head cutter. From what I gather other war’s chronicles don’t either. Granted I could be totally mistaken and wrong and the Japanese scholarly literature could very well mention use of a reverse edged head cutter. But I’m just saying I can’t find any with my limited understanding. If that’s the case wouldn’t the simplest explanation be that such a method wasn’t used to take heads, at least not in any non ad hoc way?

I’ve seen lots of really ugly modern beaters/“replica” sites try to convince people to buy at that price so yeah, could have done much worse. This one might be messed up but at least it’s antique. Although, katana-boutique has sold mostly in polish, niceish looking Tanto at the 300+$ range so if you wanted a budget sword you can study, I feel that might be better.