Tavroch

Can the nakago of this blade have been welded on? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220485869954&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Hello Jeremy, I talked to Lody Duindam at an antique armes fair a year ago, and admired his merchandise. He's also connected to the Dutch Token Society. He's the initiator of the Namban-tetsu Project. I think he knows his Japanese swords.

Example of acid etching?: https://www.aoi-art.com/auction/en/auction.cgi?acc=disp&no=1239159584&t=1213703271

I know of what kind of stuff you are talking, Ford, and I've worked with it. That's why I wouldn't dream of using it on a tsuba of whatever kind, expecting to end up with a nice and silvery shining tsuba. But Jim Gilbert, mentioned earlier, advises Strypeeze, apparently the same kind of stuff, so I guess it will indeed turn out to be harmless to the patina (if at all present underneath the lacquer). Think I'll try some on a small inconspicuous spot first anyway. Thanks for the confirmation Ford.

Is it possible to read the mei on the first of these two tsuba? http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5053 Does it indeed read Mune as it says in the description of the seller?

As this thread is about lacquer on iron tsuba, I'd like to ask your opinions. I was told today, at a meeting of the Dutch Token Society, by a Japanese tsuba expert that the lacquer on these two tsuba is a modern addition and that it is not urushi. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5053 If not urushi, what can it be? This Japanese expert also told me that these tsuba should be cleaned and the lacquer removed. What are your opinions? Do you agree? Can I try cleaning them according to the principles outlined in the tsuba cleaning article by Jim Gilbert? http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/tsuba/tsubacln.htm Maybe I should add that these are not very expensive tsuba.

I just bought these two tsuba: This was the description: Left tsuba: Mei: Mune ? 7.02 cm x 6.62 cm Middle Edo period. Tree and 2 Chinese men are engraved with gold and copper iroe. Right tsuba: Mei: mumei 7.26 cm x 6.70 cm Middle Edo period. Man with sword is engraved with gold and silver and copper iroe. The right one drew my attention. I suppose this is Shoki? Any chance this can be a depiction of a Dutch or Portugese tourist? Any chance these tsuba were made by the same artist? I think the style, especially of the back sides, is rather similar. Here's the mei on the left one: Can anybody read what it says? "Mune" as in the description? Furthermore: I read a recently reanimated thread about lacquer on tsuba: these have both got lacquer on them: Especially visible in the deeper parts. It is quite hard: a wooden toothpick or a fingernail won't leave any mark. The lacquer covers the copper inlay near the nakago ana of the left tsuba so it must be applied later. Here's a detail of the lacquer in the holes of the left tsuba: Any ideas on when this lacquer was applied? I welcome any further remarks or comments.

A while back there was a tsuba for sale with the VOC logo all over. I think it was on e-sword.jp, maybe Aoi-art. A year or so back. Did anyone catch that? I thought I backed up some pics but I can't find them anymore. I'd be interested in seeing that one again. Anyone? Oh, and can I add that I like the two-dime tsuba? (One hundred and twenty-dime that is.) At times like this I can see the other side of the argument of the whole digital rights thingy. Pictures are worth quite a lot when there's no chance you will ever be able to see the real thing. Somehow this touches on the fundamentals of art, doesn't it?

Thanks Mark. The blade hasn't been in the saya since I took it out and I don't intend to put it back in again. I was indeed thinking of making a basic shirasaya myself, if only to be able to ship it to a polisher if it comes to that. I was able to remove the habaki recently by gently tapping it with a piece of soft plastic. There's some caked on rust and other goo that prevented it from easily sliding off. I read an article about removing old rust from tsubas by Jim Gilbert; he suggests removing old rust by rubbing with a piece of bone or something of the kind. Think this method would be okay to try to remove the caked on stuff that's on the nakago of my blade? Or should I leave that to the polisher if it comes to that? When having a blade polished is it always necessary to have a new habaki made? Or does that depend on how much metal will be removed? I may have found a nice tsuba to go with the blade; any ideas on what the gunto mounts would fetch in case I'd want to sell them?

Thanks John. Old hat, old hat... I don't think anything is ever old hat. I keep reading and re-reading stuff as my viewpoint changes and when learning new things. Combining that with my less than perfect retention, I think the world of iron, steel and other metals will easily keep me busy the rest of my lifetime.

Thanks John. Anything more specific on the aproximate age of these arrowheads? 5000BC? 100BC? I went through most of the stuff you mention over the years. The eutectoid family recently in connection with Wootz steel. Martensite I know from fencing: the 'best' (FIE approved) fencing weapons nowadays are made from 'maraging steel' (a contraction of the words martensitic and aging), which gives them the needed strength, flexibility and resitance to breakage. At the time I was researching the claim that it would also be the type of steel with the best guarantee to leave a flat surface after breaking instead of a sharp edge. The advantage of which is obvious in sports fencing. Turned out to be not the case, just a rumour. I found that a lot of the history of iron and steel is covered in all kinds of myths and rumours. What more do you want in a hobby eh? (Not to mention work; I've been a metalworker, engineer and NC-programmer most of my working life.) An inexhaustible supply of mysteries to look into. I am wondering lately why it took me so long to discover the wonderful world of Nihonto. I'm finding that a lot of things that interested me over the years come together here.

Does anybody have any ideas on the type of clay used when quenching in oil? Is the same type of clay mixture used in oil as is used when tempering in water? Is the way it is used any different? Since when is oil tempering used? From what period is the oldest known example of an oil tempered blade? Are they all post-industrial age? Any medieval smiths using oil? Any thoughts? Any documented knowledge? Can anyone point me to some (online) documentation on the subject? Were there ever any other media used for tempering?

I thank you all for your comments and suggestions so far. But there's still some unanswered questions: 1: Can this be called a Gunome-Choji hamon? And if not: what would you call this type of hamon? 2: The ji has a definite convex shape (niku?), especially near the ha. Can I take this as a sign that the blade is quite healthy? Can something at all be said about the tiredness/healthyness of this blade? 3: Is it ok to clean the seppa and tsuba any further? If so; what would be the best way to do this? Should I try to polish out the marks left by the sanding? Or are they best left as they are now? 4: What kind of mounts would you suggest as appropriate for this kind of blade?

I'm not picking on you Isidro, honest. Just flapping out the first things that come to my mind. I'm pretty new to this game as well and I thought I spotted an oil quenching just after I've been fantasizing about that in another post. Don't know about the two last blades. My guess: top one is oil quenched, bottom one maybe; looks a little soft around the edges despite the choji pattern. Hard to tell (for me) from these pictures. That is to say:this is what I think I see trying to etc. etc. you get my point. Soon more knowledgeable folk will hopefully come along and tell us what we're really seeing here.

What I can see is fingerprints on a €1000 blade (top one). That in itself is not a good thing.

See; I'm getting the hang of this.

Is this an oil-quenched one too?

The lower one lying on the bag's wrong too.

?:http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/tanto/image/08328koshirae.jpg

You are right Brian/John. My theories about bubble-induced phase changes are bullshit anyway; the activities in the hamon exist throughout the blade, not just at the surface, which is apparent when a blade is polished. So no such things as shockwave induced nie-specks I'm afraid. It was a nice idea though, and I had some good fun reading up on stuff and thinking up possibilities. @Henry: I guess the viscosity of the medium only affects the speed of the convection currents and thereby the heat transfer rate. So it at least partially explains the difference between oil and water in this regard.

By the way, I know I'm talking about stuff way over my head, but in my opinion reaching is the only way to learn things.

@Moriyama-san: You are correct of course about the temperatures. Still it is rather unclear how the steam bubbles affect the local temperature at the steel's surface at the time the phase-changes take place. I agree cavitation probably doesn't play a role here (although you never know in violent and chaotic processes like these), but what I was getting at is the influence of (micro) shockwaves on the phase-changes and crystallisation that takes place, whether they arise from imploding or exploding bubbles. Point being that the violent effects caused by the contact of the relatively cool water/oil with the relatively hot steel, might generate (possibly locally very energetic) shockwaves, who in turn might influence the ongoing phase-changes and crystallisation processes. See for example: http://delftoutlook.tudelft.nl/info/indexb71b.html?hoofdstuk=Article&ArtID=4244 So these phase-changes can cause soundwaves; they can be abrupt processes. I think it's safe then to assume it can work the other way around too: soundwaves (shockwaves) could influence or initiate these phase-changes.

Bear with me for a moment please; I feel a rather long rant coming up: What I'd like to know is what causes the different results of oil quenching vs water quenching. Given that the temperatures of the oil and the water are the same during quenching, one would expect a comparable rate of cooling in both media. The temperature at the surface of the steel during quenching is influenced only by the difference in the ways in which the different media react to the heat of the steel. I guess both water and oil will evaporate forming gaseous bubbles at the steel surface. I guess further that the bubbles in water will be bigger, more unevenly spread and/or more violently exploding/imploding than the bubbles in oil. I guess also that these bubbles must have a big influence on the temperature near the steel surface. Compared to the influence of convection currents in the fluid, I'd say these bubbles might be THE major influence on the local surface temperature of the steel during quenching. These bubbles might even completely determine the convection currents near the steel surface at the critical moment during quenching. This influence on temperature alone might be a reason these bubbles are the thing that determines the activities in the resulting hamon. In addition, would it be possible that the exploding/imploding of said bubbles DIRECTLY influences the forming of the various crystalline structures in the steel? Kind of a shock-treatment; I know that this exploding/imploding can be quite violent at micro-scale; imploding micro-bubbles can seriously damage ship's propellers for example. And I know that the influence of shocks on the formation of crystals is a known phenomenon worthy of research in other fields. I would be very interested in any research on the influence of these bubbles on the formation of crytalline structures in steel, especially in Nihonto. Maybe the scale of activities such as nie and nioi is another indication that these bubbles might have something to do with their creation. So in conclusion: only if the thickness of the layer of clay AND the temperature of the blade AND the temperature of the quenching medium AND the composition of the steel etc etc, are all just right (in other words: if the smith knows what he's doing), only then the resulting exploding/imploding bubbles cause nie, nioi and other crystalline activities to appear. This would be a subtly different look on the quenching process of Nihonto.

I understand nie and hataraki are found more readily on water quenched blades, while on oil quenched ones nioi is more common and their hamon looks more boring/sleepy. I guess this means the particles and cristals are finer and more evenly spread in oil quenched blades (stars/speckles versus cloudy). The laws of physics dictate, then, that oil quenched blades must be functionally superior to water quenched ones, as smaller and more evenly distributed particles by definition mean more evenly spread internal forces. Artistically, water quenched blades of course look better, because water quenching generates larger and more unevenly spread activities in the hamon, that are, for the same reasons, more visible. I wonder if the (size of the) steam bubbles that form (more/less) in water/oil during the quenching could have anything to do with the size and distribution of the stuctures that are formed. Has this been researched? What is the result of using still different quenching media? I have no doubt that people have been experimenting with this, but are there any documented experiments?

@Herr Schmidt: You wrote: "when you clean the blade with bamboo paper" I hope not; bamboo's got slilica in it, hard stuff, might scratch the blade. But you probably meant rice paper?