kaigunair

Don't take my comments personally David. Take comfort in the fact that I would have made the same post, and gave the same amount of encouragement, to any new collector of tosogu about this particular tsuba who had received similar comments by anyone else one this board. Please don't think that my posts were directed to you. Instead, know that they were aimed at providing Mark with a quite different opinion about the piece he asked about. As I've tried to explain, I believe it would easily find a place in the collection a "serious student" of tosogu because of its various attributes. Now if we're talking about amassing a collection of only expensive tsuba, (i.e. those in the tens of thousands of $$ and up), this may be excluded from that group....excluding the possibility we find out it happens to possibly come from a famous ex-former owner. I'd like to hear more about the motif's on the tsuba. Anyone figure out the symbolism yet?

Hi David, Thanks for pointing out the measurements. Guess I was to taken with the photos to notice... I've had the KTK catalogs for a while. Nice stuff, but I don't understand the comparison. Items there span many genre and ages. In my own meager studies, I've been learning to try approach each piece, not against my own perceived notions of beauty or craftsmanship as seen in other eras or styles or a mix thereof, but within the context of the time, era, and cultural atmosphere with which it was made (and the better pieces being more imbued with). As an example, if I studied Natsuo all day long, I wouldn't see the beauty in a fine katsushi or owari tsuba.... Anyhow, it would seem Mark's example has some very interesting characteristics. Hoping to learn more about what the symbols may mean when taken together. They probably unlock the reason behind this tsuba, possibly who made it or what the creator had in mind as its "message". And especially so if this does indeed date to the momoyama era, with what that most interesting period stands for...

Hi Mark, Great tsuba. My gut feeling is that this is momoyama period, based on the really outrageous design, and that the kozuka ana, while an earlier form, was actually a later add-on and not part of the original design. I think several elements of your tsuba lend itself to some serious study by any serious tosogu student. Definitely not a run of the mill as Tom has stated, so thanks for sharing it. I really like the way this smith has abstracted the design elements. I see an individual, albeit magnified, shippo theme, but the others I can't readily identify, which makes the piece even more interesting. It is also not your typical round shape but a somewhat tachi looking mokko gatta with aoi cutouts is also very interesting. This and the fact that it also has brass, and may have had more in the past, is also an indicator this wasn't your basic tsuba. Another feeling I have is that your face-on photos are really washing out the tsuba and its texture. I see that your side profile photo is showing what looks to possibly be some nice iron. Of course it would help to have this tsuba in hand, but there are definitely some really interesting and pleasant elements that can be picked out of your photo that indicate this was possibly, at one time, a pretty nice tsuba and could have been worn by a higher ranked bushi. If you could provide some measurements on your tsuba, and possibly try to take some photos without flash or harsh light. Some off angle pics of the surface might help. I also think outside pics on an overcast day or twilight, vs direct noon day sun is preferable. If possible, would love to see how it might look mounted.

Markus, thanks so much for bringing to the forefront of tsuba studies the benefit/need to understand the larger historical as well as cultural context in which the designs of the tsuba were "forged" under. I am starting to understand that part of the larger confusion over the current classification of tsuba into particular schools is often directly caused by viewing tsuba under a sort of intellectual vacuum. Excerpts from a very interesting book on a somewhat very related field of study: "It is common in 20th century writing on world ceramics in both English and Japanese to find an intellectual absolutism that privileges the beauty of the object over its historical context. Such writing is based on the assumption that aesthetics are objective and universal. This supposition forms the base for the ranking of art according to standards that are nominally above boundaries of time, space, or other markers of difference. It is presupposed that objects "speak for themselves," making connoisseurship the most viable method of studying art. The ultimate goal is to distinguish high-quality objects from fakes or those of low quality. One critic has argued this narrow approach is marked by the following characteristics: concentration on a narrow body of subject matter; focus on individual producers; reliance on restricted methodology; and indifference to structures of power inherent in the subject matter. Postware research on **** shows all these characteristics, in its consistent focus on...lineage; fixation with certain key figures...; repeated references to the same small group of objects and documents paired with disregard for "outside" evidence; and denial of the role of tea practitioners and (smiths) in constructing particularistic histories at key historical junctures. The origins of this approach can be found in the post-Enlightenment rejection of tradition and embrace of creative imagination, individual genius, and scientific rationalism. Reproducing the works of the past became anathema, and imitation-once the central skill of the artist-was cast aside as 'a childish, senseless enterprise'. The work of the genius was said to occur in the vacuum of originality rather than the field of rote-learned forms and inherited styles. For early 20th century Japanese intellectuals, this epistemological framework necessitated rethinking the history of their nation's cultural production to highlight the triumph of innovative individuals rather than the dominance of conservative schools. This task was urgent because Japan was already under suspicion as a notorious 'borrower' of technology and culture from other societies. One British diplomat comment in 1900, 'It must be remembered that Japan has never originated anything.' Proving otherwise became the goal of many historians, artists, critics, and government officials. While Japan's fortunes improved as a colonial and capitalist Great Power, Japanese intellectuals moved from proving that Japan was on par with the West to demonstrating that the former was a superior civilization. 'Traditional' arts....found a new identity in the nationalist climate of the interwar years as living proof of Japan's cultural uniqueness. The understanding of the *** (think tsuba) tradition (think schools) that emerged out of that period has survived to the present with few changes." Anyone who finds the above interesting? I myself have grown up hearing about the uniqueness of Japan, and feeling some pride in my heritage. But just as interesting is when one consider what is also going on in China and it's arts/culture/movies these days, and where that will be in a few years...

How about a cast tea pot with a built in tsuba theme? For casting work, the nanako looks quite detailed to my untrained eyes. Slight possibility this is in fact soldered onto the pot, but I can't tell with the photo angles provided. And this is probably a modern piece meiji or post work and not Edo period, so this might lessen its applicability to this thread .... Still, is an example of the possibilities of detailed cast work + possibly post casting work ( this is not a top grade example by any means)... http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... t398226007

perhaps what is sometimes termed "cast" is actually repoussé work. a very wise board member pointed me in this direction regarding a piece that I felt was suspect for what it was being represented as, but turns out to be a perfect example of repoussé work. yamagane/suaka, as well as shakudo and possibly shibuichi, would take to repoussé work quite easily. Add a nice fukurin, and it would be hard to tell that the outer plates were attached to an inner core. If adhered together using pine resin, which can dry and crack over time, the rim of the such a tsuba would be susceptible to coming loose should the edge be bumped.

Hmmmm....kantei 1 by a different member mention both NBTHK and Nthk papers. Kantei #2 .....is this based solely on the book example (which has some different and interesting details compared to the kantei example)? Would be helpful to know if the papering organizations expressed an opinion, as it helps to broaden the knowledge about what they will paper so specifically...

Paper'd or opinion? Either way, a nice example.

I'll call Toda school, but I've only seen iron examples sans the inlay. If solely based on materials and design, sans shape, I'd call umetada. For the record, I'll go with Toda. I hope it didn't paper umetada, as that would be another grab bag attribution IMHO....

My first thought was possibly an older plate reworked with elements at a later time, but would be a hard thing to prove either way. I did wonder about the rim chipping at the 12 o'clock position in the first pic. Thanks for explaining the design!

Depends on what you like. I've found some books are better for iron/steel while other better for kinko, especially machibori works....

bleah given the time and $$$ to get those papers, one would think the submitter would want something more specific. that a hack like me could throw that out such a easy grab bag attribution....color me unimpressed with the papers.

I'm guessing the papers both make a "mumei" attribution... I'll also throw out a grab bag category : "shoami", mid-late edo.

a nice one!

Morita-san, I have a red variety in my rock garden....a very beautiful tree indeed. I completely agree this is a momiji themed tsuba! It is interesting to see the misinterpretation based on cultural perspectives. Kunitaro, why am I not surprised you're located in Amsterdam.....

The post was made to inject a little humor into the tosogu threads, as I thought the listing was supposed to also be tongue-in-cheek. That being said, I think it would be a very hard argument to make that this was anything other than a maple leaf. Part of the problem appears that there is a "Western" view of what a maple leaf is; the one on the Canadian flag being the image that is conjured up. In Japan, I don't know if any such indigenous varieties of "fat leafed" maples existed. The standard image of a maple in Japan is of the thin leafed variety show above and on the tsuba. When you say "maple leaf" in Japan, this hemp looking like leaf is what a typical Japanese will think of. There is also deep symbolism behind the maple leaf in Japan, and it is a very common theme used everywhere and on everything - akin to the sakura / cherry blossom symbol. In fact, the two are often pictured together in sort of a ying/yang combo. So its either all these stylized leaves plaster all over the place in Japan represent maples, or Japan has a much larger culture of hemp usage and appreciation than anyone has ever imagined! Anyhow, just wanted to clear the air. Again, I thought the ebay ad was a creative description given the times we live in....

I would have guessed fuyou or maple leaf, but I wouldn't be surprised if this little bit of marketing didn't help it sell. Probably would have gone faster at this past SF show if displayed as such.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-SAMURA ... 46256c156e

Wishing you a full and complete recovery. Thanks for all you do for the nihonto community. One of the good ones, hands down.

a few more...

As promised, here are some pic under sunlight. Included some of my other references (i.e. has some sort of paper) for comparison:

Just a follow up. Got to see and handle this tsuba in person. Was definitely a nice design and well executed. I overheard a conversation regarding how another advanced collector really wanted this piece. While nice, was well beyond my price point, but I do wish I could see what others were seeing it in....

Ah, I feel rusty coming back to kinko works.... Peter, part of the problem is the lighting of the photos...I can't tell if this is an iron base or shakudo! I think it is iron because of the orange rust around the waves. Am I correct? It is a quaint piece, but not top end quality. The sakura on the rim is a nice touch but pales in comparison to the works of the top end schools. I like the rendering of the sun/clouds best. Also nice that it appears to have been mounted (but really need better lighted pics). My mind may be mixing iron and kinko at the moment, but I'll throw out a "mino" school style tsuba attribution since there are other opinions posted at the moment....

Hi David, Will try to get so photos by the weekend in the sunlight. Darn work gets in the way. I guess I misread the post where you attached your website pictures. It seems the one from the show is different than the one you previously submitted? It may still be from the same hand that made yours, given the similarities. Anyhow, will work on getting better pics.

I did have the distinction (or misfortune), of being the very last person to leave the hall (was hard for the staff to find a luggage cart as they were quite in demand): And as I sat there waiting for a cart to be brought, I saw this little pile of rubble the staff swept up. Kinda makes for a fitting shot to close off this thread of the 2014 SF Token Kai (and also promote the next sword show in Chicago as registration is probably open for that one; hope to get there one day myself!) :

Closing thoughts: Many of the exhibitors were really not dealers, but just collectors who buy tables, which comes with breakfast and dinners, to soak in the full experience and really make lasting connections with others who share the same passion. Not that it hurts to sell some items to fund new items, or get leads on future additions. So while its great to attend the show, its even better to spend the extra and get a table to get/add to the full experience. How great would it be to double the number of dealers and the size of the hall? While I cut out early each day (leaving around 9 or 10pm the first two days to go home; most exhibitors hanging out well beyond that), I am still pretty exhausted. Both because of all the things to see, but also all the really interesting people to meet and talk too. If you're going to a show like this just to buy something for your collection, you're missing out on more than half of the value (and fun) in making such a trip. I met some really great people this year, some really really great guys (and a few gals too), just by hanging around and asking them about what was on their table. Was ableo to re-connect with a few forum members too. Only one person sought me out personally, but that in itself was such a treat! Another kind exhibitor did a private showing of uber uber fine tsuba which I am very grateful for. Several even dearer and more memorable things happen to me during this show, totally unexpected and underserved blessings, that I will forever remember with a smile and a full heart. No joke. Really crazy uber blessings / manna from heaven type stuff. While some of it involved physical things and items, it was seeing the character and heart of many of the people at the show that was the gift of this year's show. Your actual mileage will probably vary, because putting up the light booth was probably part really great experience I had. I think it helped those who used it (maybe those who didn't like it just didn't say anything to me), but, in actuality, people coming up and talking to me because of it....Wow, that was greatest unexpected benefit of my meager efforts. But as most of us go here looking to add to our collections, here are two pics of my physical take aways: Items I bought: Items given to me! Selling wise, I brought out almost all the items from my little tsuba collection, including my top ones, and some tosogu. On friday it looked as though I wouldn't have anywhere to put out my little display, but then, in the evening, Tom graciously lent use of a small section of a table to display my little grouping of items. What sold was all my favorite items that I would have rather have taken back home! Wife was definitely happy to see cash in vs cash out for once. At the same time, what I expected to sell but didn't, turned to be part of a grander plan for my unbelievable 2014 Token Kai experience.