kaigunair

I thought I'd update this thread and provide some additional information: I picked this one up from ed. I am no expert, but the pics of the signature here were not the best when compared in hand. There are a bunch of other sadakatsu signatures floating in the 'net for blades dated closer to 1943, and on more "regular" blades. The mei's posted here are definitely for much fancier and nicer blades (and much more expensive). I was concerned about the lack of a "kin" in the "kin-saku" since I usually see these on his blades, at least the ones that goggle pops up with. I'm a novice, but I would assume that more experience members might have been tipped off from the pics that there was pressure on the mei from the tsuka, which would have worn down certain characters. Perhaps not, because this was probably due to the fact that in these particular gunto mountings (type 44's) there are threaded metal screws and a built in "nut" instead of bamboo pegs for the mekugi. The lower tsuka is actually cracked all the way around near the mekugi-ana, most likely due to a way over tightening of the screw down there. I could not see any ayasugi hada, but this blade was always represented as being a normal work of sadakatsu (I read somewhere may be only 25% of his blades are done in that style). I recently got the afu watson set, and tried to use the gimie section. It was alittle helpful, and did make me notice the wear done by the tsuka more. I was most concerned about the strokes in the katsu kanji myself. Again, I'm by far a novice, but these were my initial observations. Thankfully I live near a togishi who has handled more than a handful of gassans, and was gracious enough to take a look at the blade. He felt it was good, and would polish well. He pointed out that the initial mekugi ana was probably done at the time of the mei, while the second lower one was much rougher and added later, with a different tool. Looking at the various signatures online, the placement of the first mei I would think is a kantei point for gassan. I am curious as to whether these were first mounted in the normal (type 92?) mounts and later remounted in these type 44's. The 1943 dating of the blade is still consistent with 44 (i.e. style 1944) mounts per gregory and fuller. He also pointed out that it was ubu-ba, which was a new term for me - polished only once as indicated by the unsharpened area of the blade near the habaki. It was something I noticed on one of my yasukunito's recently, but didn't understand the significance. The polish was rough, but he felt it was a bizen (maybe he said ko-bizen?) copy. Another interesting point he mentioned was that the military often polished the blades to a high shine after buying them (as indicated by the star stamp), and this would "flatten" the grain. He said there was still a chance there may be ayasugi grain underneath. He had polished blades where only a small part of the blade had ayasugi grain - as a sort of gassan signature. So, overall, it appears to be a genuine gassan sadakatsu. I enjoy the fact that it is star stamped and that is actually a plus to me, as my collecting interests tie to the ww2 era and history. This is also my first gendaito in type 44 mounts- in books and pictures I always thought they looked pretty boring, like something on a chinese copy. Holding the mounts in hand, I found them very "austere", and there's something about the color and texture on the saya. I actually think I may like them better than the normal mounts, as I feel they are more "bushi" if that is a word. I never expected this to be an exceptional blade, but I would not adverse to such a surprise after a costly polish. Such blades are beyond my piggy bank anyway. I hope this additional information is useful on the forum.

Nice. Ita dated Showa 19, 4 nen or June of 1944. I'm sure someone will chime in with the maker.

how did it go? I wasn't able to make it down in time for the meeting, but I was around J-town for lunch....

hmmm, the end of that blade reminds me of some murata-to blades I've seen. Any better pics?

hmmm, I see the problem. Maybe the original yoshichika is papered, but perhaps the ni-dai isn't. I bet there is more to the story behind these two smiths. Seems like there are examples of both smiths, with and without the cutting testing. I also wonder if all the blades were made with western steel, or maybe only those with the cutting test (or without). I could see it go either way, the cutting test indicating tamahagane or the cutting test done to assure that the western steel blade was OK. Very neat! Now I only wish I had won that auction....

Found one: Nidai Yoshichika swords have received NTHK and NBTHK origami and origami from Fujishiro. They are considered true gendaito despite being made from western steel. His swords were tested (tameshi-giri) by Nakayama Hakudo (sometimes read as Hiromichi) of Ishikawa Prefecture. The nakago are often stamped with "Hakudo Tameshi-giri Sho" (Tested by Hakudo) Signature on other side:

"Yoshichika swords have received NTHK and NBTHK origami and origami from Fujishiro. They are considered true gendaito despite being made from western steel. The oshigata (left) is a Shodai (first generation) Yoshichika blade." Thanks for the link. I think I disremembered this one!

Well, here's another. Anyone have info on this one? I've posted a topic here also:http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10442&sid=fa3028721ea1d8fb39e9a3a575e575f3 and signature on other side (nidai? -- saku) :

was perusing old auctions and came upon this one. has this type of kanji stamping been seen before? Smith signature is nidai ?? saku?

If you're still in the San Francisco bay area, the NorCal Jpn Sword club is meeting this sunday at the JCCNC center in japantown. They moved their meeting to this week due to the Far Side race last week. Bring it there and I'm sure they can help you out. http://www.ncjsc.org/

It looks like they might have taken the steel wool to the tang (nakago) area. this is a big no-no and would reduce the value of the sword, along with the consideration for polishing. 7mb is a lot, so pics should be better. i think the problem is the compression so that the pics are too small to get a good look at any detail...

My $0.02.... While I think the saya is good, I'm not too sure about the blade also, esp the shape of the holes, and what looks like a loose fitting habaki (colar). What I think *may* have happened is that at sometime in the past, your grandfather might have taken the sword to someone for an appraisal. The "expert" making that appraisal may have said he needed to hold on to the blade, and changed out the original blade for a knockoff. So, better pics are necessary, and you might want to research if it was ever taken into for an "appraisal"....

Ah, thanks very much. That's what I was originally wondering, and I appreciate the link. Well, makes alittle more sense, but this is moving it into the yasukunito price range. I take it the earlier Naohiro was very skilled? Else, I would agree with cabowen...

So, the $6k+ is more about the mountings than the blade/smith itself? I had thought maybe the smith was famous and well known. In that case, this type of pricing, based only on the mountings, seems INSANE. I jest, but it is alittle incredulous to me that this sort of value is being attributed to fittings. Maybe I'm the uninformed... Also, because I've seen this start popping up even in some recent books, I'm facinated when there is a particular attribution made to a family merely based on a kamon. Yes, if its the 16 petal chrysathemum or the tokugawa crest, but having a little silver kamon on a sword hilt or on a kabuto or gusoku and then attributing it to a particular family without any corroborating evidence seems without fact or cause. Kamons weren't like european healdry in that they were so detailed to be unique as to one family. Where are people getting this idea about the tracability of kamons, especially in the late 19th and 20th century when any family could choose one? Wait a second, is this perhaps Togo's blade?

What do you mean by ultra rare? The mountings or the smith?

I am very curious who this smith is, Naohiro? I guessing (hoping) that's why this blade went this high. Can someone school me? Blade looks like is in need of some serious polish, and I think they level of rust may go deep? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=180663476703&si=whcHxxt6yNETugR1JAs%252Fk0kuE98%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

Good to know. My apologies for the implied judgement. The bad is on "waterlo". Again, a "thanks" is all its takes...

I feel you Stephen. A "thanks" or an reply acknowledgement is always a simple and appropriate gesture. I think I've forgotten to do so in the past since I'm on multiple forums. Possibly the same case here? Or maybe just interested in getting info to sell it....

I just wanted to say that this is one great thread. All the various comments and responses, as well as forging info on mantetsu blades have been so enjoyable for someone with an interested in ww2 era blades like myself. Even though there were differening points of opinion, the forum always maintained a respectable level of lively debate. As a reader who could not provide any additional info, just wanted to say "thanks" for such an indepth and informative thread.

99% of the time, seki usually means non-traditionally made. I believe there is also a difference between the normal seki stamp and a smaller version, the latter being more commonly seen on blades which are traditionally made. I guess the important thing here is buying the blade and not the nakago stamps. Until something definitive comes out, too many in the collector world believe seki=non traditionally made, and therefore it might be more difficult to resale such a blade in a pinch. But also might be a good time to stock up on good blades that are seki stamped, and wait for things to turn around... steve: nice maru-ni san ken katabami avatar. is that your family's kamon also?

I believe this badge was awarded to exceptional factory workers. Very neat!

yes, and no. this is actually one of the late war versions, where they haven't really figured out if it was navy or army. TBH I'm surprised the blade is navy marked. The mounts are correct in this variation, which is army type hardware but in a navy color scheme...

Are you The Tom Clancy of mystery/thriller fame or do you just share the name? That aside, I was indirectly questioning whether *most* emura signed & prison made blades actually used real tamahagene. TBH, I don't think they do, and are more like mantetsu blades or murata-to's. I've been told that there is a US swordsmith who signs masamitsu (located in berkeley, ca) who does not use tamahagene and water quenches. So I'm also indirectly questioning whether water quenching is definitive for tamahagene. I'd also just set the record straight in saying that a blade made by Mr. Emura, traditionally or not, would be something normally considered more worthy for a polish/saya job than the emura-signed prison jobs which really lack the aspects of "good" nihonto. Yes, there is a lot of opinion in this, but if someone told a novice to go get full polish for a machine made gunto, I think we could say that was "bad" advice, regardless of how much sentimental value the novice placed on it. An emura blade is NOT a machine made gunto, but I do believe it falls short of a gendaito in the mold of a yasukunito. Maybe close to seki-smith blades, the lower quality kinds which often aren't kantei'd. I'd prefer to hang myself with my own words, as opposed to let others put them into my mouth.

Is this it? http://yakiba.com/Kat_Yoshihira.htm That Smith seems like a character! Kinda interesting about the mismatch/missing parts of the koshirare. As long as everything on teh tsuka lines up with the holes in the tsuba and seppa, should be easy to fix. if it doesn't, then might be alittle more involved to get everything to sit and lock correctly. I wonder if the nakago was altered to fit the gunto mounts? (seen that a few times) I can't speak towards the blade or smith. If genuine, seems like decent starter blade and price seems ok in light of what junk is going for ebay nowadays. Worthy for a polish, to better enjoy the blade, perhaps?

:lol: well, in this case, no, since it disintegrated in the mekugi! But you've gotta hand it to the saya makers....I mean, how often do you hear of a sword coming out of the handle in the middle of a battle. The only thing holding it in there is the compression of the wood/cord wrappings, and a little bamboo peg! More correct to say the post office was mighter than the pencil...