kaigunair

Henry: wow, more great history to learn. that is one interesting tachi! but perhaps in the 1200's they had not yet perfected tsuka wrapping skills? But thanks very much for the info and pics. While improbably, not impossible - if its out there, I will seek to one day match up the "dai" koshirae! Keith: thanks for the information on the typical tachi/handachi tsuba, exactly what I was hoping for. Would I be correct in saying that the tsuba which is currently mounted is somewhat in the same correct tachi shape (cross/4sides), though with the dragon/wave design. I had been thinking something like this with the ken katabami kamon would be nice: http://cgi.ebay.com/EDO-Japanese-Iron-Shoami-Kamon-Sukashi-Tsuba-NBTHK-/250815641205?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item3a65c6f675

Handachi is essentially a nihonto in tachi mounts (but without the hangers) worn as a katana edge upwards and with kurikata added. So just look at a classic tachi, remove the obi hangers and flip it over and theres your Handachi. Question: so is there still the possibility this was the "sho" in a daisho, and that there is a "dai" set out there? Or is handachi mounts indicative of only a single worn blade?

Thanks all for the current replies. Steve: it was a long time coming, and glad I wasn't bidding against a fellow forum member. David: agree, but at this point, I cant tell the difference between the fake or reproduction. I will be watching for sure. Henry: will look up more info on a handachi. It Can you point out characteristics of handachi? Is quite small, smaller than tachi length as well as uchigatana. I like the saya very much, but I also assumed that the tsuba on it currently could also not be original, as they did stirp it of it's blade.

more pics of the koshirae

Watching ebay for over 10+ years, I've missed out on a wakizashi carrier case, a very nice jinbaori, several jingasas, and 3 different gunto mounts with my family crest on it. Only the first two I really regret not going for. So I was really happy when I finally made my first tosogu/koshirae purchase, which is also my first real nihonto purchase which has some sort of family connection. I admit it was much more than I expected, but it was one of the nicest ken-katabami marked items I've seen. Basically got it for the saya. Unfortunately, I share my kamon with several martial arts schools in the US, which I guess is where some of the competition comes from. The fittings are by no means high grade, and from what little I know, they are actually pretty low quality. I do enjoy the simple and somewhat matching design of the kojiri/kabutogane/koiguchi/fuchi. I'd rather move towards a muted elegance of samurai vs very extravagant court or edo-merchant flair. The kozuka is in really bad shape, but what bothers me most is the tsuba. I'd appreciate any suggestions/pics of tsuba styles which might be a better compliment for this set. I think I'm partial to open iron metal work designs, but I'm sure there are designs which I've never considered since the tsuba field is so vast and diverse. Basically, I'm looking for guidance as to what's out there. Once I have a good idea of style/design, then I'll save up and try to get an excellent example for this set. Any comments, good or bad, of the koshirae itself is also welcomed, as this is a very new area for me. Thanks inadvance.

Where are all the signature police? Guess I could have gotten away with KAIGUNAIR, or WAKIZASHI or TANTOKO, or MENUKIKO.... :lol:

hope these help the discussion. were picked up at a local jpn antique shop because they were rusted and are not nihonto. please do not rush to judgment, though I understand some comments may be negative. these were perfect candidates to study "bubba" restoration first hand. with my interest being gendaito and all the junk in ebay, "know thy enemy" was the idea behind this purchase and work. pics are of both after they have both been de-rusted using electrolysis, with the area under the "nakago" isolated to keep the patina. the saw has undergone two evenings of rough polish using one side of a cheap two sided synthetic stone (surface color of saw pics are due to use of store bought mineral oil coating this blade, but also due to lack of skill of the "polisher"). Lesson #1 the need for washing soda when polishing steel. Lesson #2: prepare to have one's finger's blister and bleed. most importantly, I understand better what immense skill a togishi has and why good ones command a premium. Back to the discussion, the saw has a little mekugi-ana, and the two came as a set....probably a nice little novelty gift and representative of an Japanese swiss army knife! I also see how difficult it is to polish the beveled tips of a staggered saw blade, as they would not normally contact a flat stone.

I just picked up a quaint little utilitarian set consisting of a blade and saw. I'm not sure if it's true nihonto, actually I pretty sure it's not ( one of the reasons why I bought it, as I'll explain later). It came in a plain mini tanto like shrisaya mounts, one saya with each blade having half a tsuka width wise. While the blade had no mekugi Ana, the little saw blade did. I'm guessing due to the saw action. On an iPhone and so will post photos later.

well, stumbled across something on the type 3 in Japanese. it does specify weight, if I am reading this correctly: 一、刃渡りは二尺一寸、二尺二寸、二尺三寸の三種、重量は百九十五匁乃至二百廿五匁、 　　 また外装の型式は佩用、使用に便なる様「打刀造り」とし Something about 195 匁乃至 or 225匁. Does any one know how this compares to the previous specs set for the standard blades used fro the type 94 or 98 army mounts? I believe the yasukunito's had a set length and weight range, but disremember it now...

Hey George, thanks for the reminder about Ohmura's site. I browsed that site in the past, but after your post, went over it in much more detail. Great stuff. Maybe its because more of it is translated than when I first came across it several years ago. Will spend more time in it, but the pages I found on the type 3 weren't as technical as some of his other pages. Its exciting to reread his site now that I'm more interested in gendaito, and looking forward to any original material you can dig up.

george, great info as usual. Do you know if there was an official document recording the reasons for these changes? (I've seen similar documents regarding the early changes to the Nambu t-14 pistol to deal with manchurian winters.) Regarding the type 3, I was wondering if the specs for the type of blade made were also revised sometime during the beginning of the war. Compared to my yasukunito's and minatos, blades mounted in type 3s are longer and "beefier". The examples I've seen are the gassan discussed in the other thread, but previously several nagamura and several emura blades. Before seeing my gassan, I thought it was just those two smiths who tended to make big, thick blades, but now I wonder if the allocated weight of steel was increased. Perhaps due to the winters in china or the rough jungle conditions, the blade specs themselves needed to be revised? of course, I know that custom ordered blades would be made to fit the order's specs, but I'm talking more about the general regs and specs issued by the army. just a hypothesis right now, based on my limited experience...

could be just a photo problem, but the tsuka appears to be made of medal? has any one seen something like this before? possibly a chinese fake with added "war damage"? http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-OFFICERS-CAPTURED-SWORD-/290582369507?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a80f14e3

Very nice! Is the special kojiki original to the set of fittings you had restored, or are reproductions being made? This is the second example I've seen of his gunto fittings restoration work, and I like it!

Thanks chris. Is there a good explanation or forum thread that explains why the hamon turns clear and the rest of the blade white? too bad the blade can't just be soaked in a base solution to "reverse" the acid. with the cost of a polish, most gunto/low quality gendaito are for all intents and purposes irrepairably damaged...

As one who appreciates gendaito/gunto swords due to the era, I frequently ran across sellers who seem to have lots of these blades in good condition. Later on I learned some sellers use an "acid wash" to clean up these blades instead of having a togishi polish them. One by-product is that the whiteness of the hamon is lost, becoming a more mirror finish, while the rest of the blade looks white, sort of a reversal of the hamon/blade. I was wondering, does acid washing permanently damage blades? Does is permeate beneath the surface, or is it just some sort of top layer oxidation? Thanks in advance.

Not sure what this is referring to, but nothing of the sort was said, at least by me. In previous posts, where I mentioned my conversation with a togishi, I noted that maybe only 25% of his blades were with ayasugi hada. I do wish I had such an example, as it is a gassan "signature" style if you will. Also, the gassan smiths were proficient in many different styles, part of their mystique, so I don't think anyone here was saying that a bizen style or soshu style blade would be kantei point. I just began reading the Nihon to koza, and in the intro, regarding the various word for "school", there is a term for someone who is proficient in a style but not of that particular school, but it escapes me now. The modern gassan smiths were proficient across a wide variety of styles/schools. As it may appear, I feel like some words are being put into my mouth. If this is so, FYI, I am fully capable of putting my own foot in there, thank-you-very-much! If I am over reacting, then and .

Barry, Thanks very much for the mei photos. It does provide additional "confirmation" of the mei on my example, at least for me, so very much appreciated. Would love to see pics of the overall blade. Must be lovely. Is it in mounts? The way he wrote the "4" in Showa 14 had me stumped for a little bit, but that is an interesting way of doing it. What is written after the gatsu? Its a small thing, but one "element" which I had hoped for on my gassan was his kao (aside from ayasugi grain of course). But thanks to this thread, I understand that there is actually a trade off between the kao and the rikugun star stamp. Very neat stuff.

cabowen: thanks much for that explanation. very helpful for a new collector like me, esp. the part regarding whether daisaku is still considered "real" or "fake". Zanshin: Pm sent regarding book. Hopefully I can locate a copy!

Bazza, thanks for the input. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is the type of statement that worries me on the forum. As George pointed out, more study is warrented. However, at some point, I think we're going down rabbit trails. I guess the study of late gassan blades would expand to include a study of Sadakazu's signature, or better yet, that of all his other students who *may* have made blades and signed in Sadakatsu's place, if he was unable to make blades in 1943 time. We'd also have to pin down when he got sick and when he stopped making his own blades, as even in 1939 he would have been 70. So perhaps all blades made during ww2 are suspect due to his advanced age? ... George, I didn't even consider the paper! I am still very new, so I don't know too much about papering and what info is contained. Luck (or maybe not) have it that they did not include a link to the paper itself, as I could have easily gotten that translated....

Thanks for link george! That's one I didn't find before. But there's always the possiblility that it too could be a gimie by the same hand as the one I have. I'll post it here for reference...

Yes, I knew that he had passed in December of 1943. I haven't read about the circumstances, which at first take would seem alittle morbid to wonder about, but would definitely help determine whether he was making blades right up to his passing or not. I also know much is written about Sadakatsu making blades under the name of his father, Sadakazu (the first). I had not read anywhere that Sadakatsu's son did this. That would be a very good thing to find out, as it would show another interesting connection between the Gassan generations... From: http://moderntosho.com/biographies/Sada ... anBio.html (this appears to jive with the info I recall reading in the Gassan book) Gassan Sadakatsu was born in 1869, the first son of Gassan Sadakazu in Osaka and the third heir to the Gassan line since it’s reestablishment in about 1830 by Sadayoshi. He began his training at a very early age developing skills that rivaled his fathers but resisted make swords in his own name before 1918, instead assisting his father in his waning years producing daisaku swords. .... Sadakatsu trained many students of who became skilled smiths on their own. Both he, a great portion of these smiths supplied sword blades to the Osaka Rikugun Zoheisho (Osaka Army Arsenal) during the Second World War. His deshi, Takahashi Sadatsugu became the first Living National treasure in 1955 and his son, Sadaichi (later Sadakazu II) also became a Living National Treasure in 1971. Sadakatsu died on December 24 th, 1943 at the age of 74.

We discussed having a wooden filler blade (I disremember the correct term right now) made for the original mounts, as I definitely want to keep those with this blade. Any suggestions for a very strong wood glue? As it is crack that possibly goes all the way around, I thinks it important to glue the tsuka wood so the lacquered itoh chord doesn't get damaged. The crack is also obscured by the itoh for now. I don't think elmers or normal wood glue is strong enough, but not sure the effect of gorilla glue or superglue on wood. (yes, I know NOT to do this with the blade in it!). I don't think I have the skill or ability to drill holes and add pegs lengthwise, plus I wouldn't want to remove the current itoh which, unfortunately, would probably be the best way to repair this cracked tsuka. The same is also cracked, but again, the placement of the itoh chord helps to obscure this. Is there a recommend glue for sealing up same cracks? Right now the gassan is resting upright on a tachi stand, looking quite elegant I might add. So there's no rush. I am alittle concerned that when it goes to polish, someone might forget that the tsuka is damaged along one of the step, and make things worse....

Thanks much George. Your post was exactly what I love reading on this forum. Such posts really help the newer collectors like myself. Regarding the second lower ana, the togishi's observation was that it was not added at the same time as the top ana. He felt the top ana was much better drilled and finished, while a different tool was used to make the second. He also felt the placement and finish of the lower one was more crude. I would agree that most likely these mounts were the only ones ever used on for blade. But I'm thinking that only one mekugi ana was put on at the time this blade was forged, and that the second one was added when this style of mounts needing 2 ana's was selected for this particular blade. It is possible that since the tsuka cracked at the lower, there was some movement that has deformed the lower mekugi ana which is why the togishi noticed the difference. But the placement is alittle "unbalanced" compared to upper one, yes? I have the "gassan tradition" book but it is light on sadakatsu and sadakazu blades (an example I'd also like to have someday). I'd love to know if there is a book on solely blades and oshigata of these two smiths, even if its in Japanese. I was more surprised at how quickly it was judged to be gimie. Esp when I saw which mei/oshigata were being used as a comparison. Perhaps I benefitted indirectly from this, as Ed's price was very resonable for a gassan, and a RJT one at that. Gendaito values have been all over the place lately. Factoring in the cost of the polishing as quoted to me this past week, it will still be a large chunk of change, but in all likelihood, I would not have been able to become a caretake of such a blade as this if it was already in full polish.

That would be a given...I also found someone to hang out with at the show in august.

I was just talking to a well respected togishi about this yesterday. As it was my first time consulting for a polish of a gendaito blade, he metioned about habaki replacement as part of the polish price. I didn't think anything was wrong with the current habaki, so I asked him why habaki's needed to be replaced or not, and what his judgement in this case was. Since a new habaki wasn't cheap (in my eyes), I asked alot of questions regarding it. Again, we were talking about a gendaito which was ubu-ba and was in pretty good shape. I think this would be important since not once did he mention that the habaki would need to be replaced due to a ill fit after a polish. Again, this could be because of the type of nihonto I was showing him. This thread was the first time I've heard about replacement due to ill fitting so I'm sure he did not mention that yesterday. The reasons he gave for a new habaki in my case was two-fold: for preference and incase the old habaki might scratch the new polish. In the latter, he didn't stress it was due to the size of the habaki and the change in blade shape after a polish, but that maybe the habaki was damaged underneath, or mishapened due to use/age, or dirty. It could have been that he was in fact referring to size/ill fitting causing the scratch, and didn't realize a novice like me would think otherwise. With regards to the particular blade we were discussing, he felt there was no need for a new habaki except for preference. He did lament the cost of gold re: making nicer habaki's.