kaigunair

Just a quick thought from someone who was where you were a few months ago, but with a focus on the soft metals vs the iron... The general info on the history of tsuba and even of the schools can be found in the multitude of online articles. Lots of great info has been posted online if you look hard enough. The forum members here are great in helping fill in the blanks when you turn up dry. KTK and a great many of the mid-priced books has lots of eye candy and useful info on each item, as do many of the available auction cataloges, but not necessarily organized in a useful fashion. Marcus's books are best new references to get general info on schools and smiths, and understand some of interconnectedness of the schools. At least for my interests. The books that will cost you are the ones needed to determine gimie from shoshin. While nihonto books of this nature can get pretty expensive, there are more options to choose from so there are less expensive options. In tosogu, the options usually start at a higher price point that nihonto, with less translated. Starting with the haynes index, you'll want to begin buying the referenced works to see actual examples and it's the reference works which you begin to plunk down the cash. Even some of the older books, whose entire text are posted various places online, require a hardcopy for the images. Forget about the $2k figure here. I guess this is where you figure out how serious you want to get into this collecting area (i.e. if you have the sickness for it...). Where I'm at, this is where I'm spending most of my efforts are going (and my frustrations coming from). Right now I'm more of a rare/out of print book collector than a tsuba collector, and boy, is it a lot of work and $$$. Wish I had inherited a collection of books or run into a garage sale of such an estate..... -end of rambling thoughts-

Me! but of course it depends on price :lol: ....

a tsuba with a built in stand!??!? Now that's something I'd pay to see!

that was a little crass for this thread, no? ANYHOW, Mantis Dude, I agree about the books and level of translations. I guess in a way, that's a good thing for a new collector like me whose spending a ton on reference books. I feel that if the ishiguro kozuka were a sword equivalent, I would have not been able to get anywhere near the serious collectors in terms of bidding price. The fact that this went for only $500, that's a good sign to me. Its also much easier for non nihonto-philes to appreciate a fine kinko tsuba, the beauty and the craftsmanship it represents. The appreciation of a blade is a much more "acquired taste" and harder to explain to the casual friend/observer the difference between a $10000 sword and a $100000 one. Easier to see the difference between a $1000 tsuba and a $10000 one. If anything, iron tsuba collecting seems alittle more akin to blade collection, IMHO. Viva la tosogu!

Can't help with ages, but I'm not so sure about the theme for 3. The oxalis theme is usuall represented by what you see in 5. The middle of the leaf points in. In 3, it points out. Perhaps its a plum or cherry blossoms in 3. Don't mean to be nit picky. My kamon, as seen in my avatar, includes the katabami as an element its design. Hence my interest in the theme....

Well, if you could add examples if inlayed signature on tsubas too, that would be the bee's knees!!!! It's starting to feel like fittings and blades are two completely different worlds, and it's more of a blade world here in the states and in the various nihonto clubs. *sigh*

That's 2 items you beat me out of! :lol: But good to know my "eye" for this area is at least picking up on items worthy of Mike Y. Now if my wallet would only catch up.... Oh, and saw an old post from raiden resurface, so for posting pics of wonderful machibori items. I wish I was at the SF show where you did your display. I recently joined the SF club, so will probably be searching you out at future shows. PLEASE CONSIDER DOING IT AGAIN. The club is supposidly emphasizing tsuba this year in their meetings...but its mostly a room full of old iron collectors *sigh*.

Thanks for the attribution Frank. Does look like Ishiguro. This example I found is not on nanako though: http://educators.mfa.org/objects/detail ... +Masayoshi If this was from a solid gold kogai, would this be correct for the non-gold design part? I've been reading so many books and online sites recently, I can't remember where I read about how some kogai are made in separate parts.... John, good point, but why would someone file it to look like this? Wouldn't it be better as a normal kozuka shaped thing? (I'm assuming that's what it would have been if this is a filed down example..) ok, gotta hit the hay....

I was watching this item because I thought the work was good and had just been reading about the construction of kogai. Thought it would make an interesting study piece, but someone else thought so too! http://www.ebay.com/itm/D530-cf4a-edo-S ... fresh=true I'm guessing the main body of the kogai it got melted down for the gold. Was this goto school work or something ?

David, kenjo or not, that is a very lovely tsuba. Seems like its a good size too. Appreciate the info and confirmation. The great responses have gotten me thinking about this topic more. Once I get my thoughts together, I'll start another thread on what might be an interesting theory of mine....

Lovely example Curran. Thanks! Looks like Japanese natives were commissioning them for gifts at that late date. You say most of these pop up in the 19th century? John, AH! Kenjo Tsuba Thanks again! From another website, it states that kenjo refers to gifts given from one damyo to another. So this might point to an older practice and the term *might* preclude the lesser work (i.e. shiremono), esp if its supposed to be a gift to a feudal lord. (unless you didn't like the guy, nor value your life.... ) Oh to be such a discerning collector that people would shower me with such gifts (or the one who holds your life in his hands)! When it comes to kinko tsuba collecting, its hard enough not to be the one "...whose money is soon departed..." Domo arigato gozaimasu, sempai-sans!

That's a deal! I would have been interested in the fuji kettle....

Brian, Thanks for that info. Does this mean that any tsuba not meant to be mounted (regardless of quality) is automatically considered made for export and for the foreign market? I'm questioning whether there was no market or practice in Japan of commissioning or making large tsubas to be given as gifts in the domestic market. a nice tsuba made for the purpose of being appreciated as an unmounted nice tsuba. I can understand if this practice increased with the interest in the West for Japanese objects, but was there such a practice preceeding this "export market" driven production. hope that clarifies my question.... (hmmm...so does this make me ghost rider or tom cruise? I'll take the former for the f-16, but the latter is kinda wacky I meant no disrepect at all and am normally far from a tower buzzer... )

Atari!

My recent purchase (currently on its way to S. Africa!) has got me wondering about these terms. Is there a difference between the terms shiremono and hamamono? Shiremono = any mass produced type work (?) Hamamono = large pieces of mass produced work made for export (?) Lastly, is there a term for "presentation" tsubas? i.e., tsubas that were never meant to be mounted but made to be given as gifts? Is there even such an official classification of tsuba? I recall a thread saying that just because a signature was placed on the rear (or not-as-detailed") face, this didn't make it a presentation tsuba, as smiths were inclined to do whatever they want. I was wondering if perhaps this statement is more apt for older iron tsubas, while tsubas made in the late Edo/meiji period perhaps followed this convention? By that late time, nihonto in general was more for show than for use, so perhaps the accepted convention was more established by then regarding signature placement? I'm not in anyway referring to goto pieces that was given as gifts, as they were definitely made for mounting (and they didn't make tsuba early on). Well, ready to be schooled by the board members! Yoroshiku onegaishimasu

Domo arigato gozaimasu Morita-san! The full translation is much appreciated. Thanks for the look up ludolf. I couldn't find him in haynes, but was hopeful that maybe someone else had other references....

Its still appreciated! May be just another one of the thousands of undocumented smiths, but the work seemed nice....

Was wondering if anyone can identify the name of the smith: 庄六 ( 兮美住 location?) Not mine, which is why the photo isn't head on.... shoroku? sharaku? can't seem to find the kanji in the Haynes, but then again, can't search by kanji...

I read the initial post. All I have to say is that you were the right person to end up with this nihonto. Its been saved from the rubbish heap and you have preserved a part of your family's history. I'm pretty sure we won't see this sword being sold off on ebay by an unknowing family member in 30 years....

wise advice already ahead of you with details worked out yesterday. great minds... I am suprised at how expensive EMS is relative to USPS 1st class (x5), and yet our postal system is still on the verge of bankrupcy. The blame should go squarely to the management and marketing, not the lowly postal workers, since it was the top brass who probably blew a lot of $$$ sponsoring so many athletes, including the likes of lance armstrong...I never knew why a monopoly needed such high profile sponsorships but I digress....

an eye candy thread indeed!!!

That was a beaut! Congrats to the new owner...

John, looks like these are kigo references! And this is possibly a scene depicting a momijigari! From Wiki: Kigo (季語 "season word"?) (plural kigo) is a word or phrase associated with a particular season, used in Japanese poetry. Kigo are used in the collaborative linked-verse forms renga and renku, as well as in haiku, to indicate the season referred to in the stanza. They are valuable in providing economy of expression. For Autumn (early autumn being August): 1) Moon (tsuki): all autumn (August–October), and moon-viewing (tsukimi) mid-autumn (September): the word "moon" by itself is assumed to be a full moon in autumn. (Moon-viewing and leaf-viewing (momijigari) in autumn (along with snow-viewing (yukimi) in winter and cherry blossom-viewing (hanami or sakuragari) in spring) are common group activities in Japan.) 2) Colored leaves (momiji): late autumn (October)—a very common topic for haiku along with related topics such as the first colored leaves (hatsu momiji) mid-autumn, shining leaves (teri momiji) late autumn, leaves turning color (usumomiji) mid-autumn, and leaves start to fall (momiji katsu chiru) late autumn. Leaf-viewing (momijigari) is a common group activity. 3) Grapes (budō) are examples of fruit that are used as autumn kigo. river could represent the milky way: Milky Way (amanogawa, literally, "river in the heaven"), because in the autumn it is most visible in Japan. It is associated with Tanabata. Looking at the leaves closely, I see that there are lots of little dot clusters next to the leaves...i.e. grapes!

Ford, Thank you very much for the explanation regarding the oxidation problems. It is very helpful. I am trying to figure out how to proceed, but will probably drop you a PM . I did come across several examples of the signature, and am waiting for my copy of wakayama. It would be nice if it wasn't gimie, but I'm happy with the design. I can't believe how detailed the copper figures are. I think I can make out a form of a menuki on the sword (or a very conveniently placed raised line). All the robes have designs. The bit in the horse's mouth, the reins, mane, details on the part of the saddle peaking out from under the noble, texture on the hats, all this is there in detail. The only wear (shiny copper) on the copper figures I can see is on the nose tips of both the mounted rider and the page, alittle on the reins, and on the tips of the right front robe of the page and possible on the mounted rider. I actually hope that this wasn't at one time electroplated with more color....what a loss that would be! John, Thanks so much for the translation...don't think I every would have arrived at that. Will do research...

Hi Al, Will search for that thread. I totally understand about not wanting to restore this to a shiny new brass/copper look, but I think it looks pretty horrible with the current level of corrosion. It makes it really hard to appreciate the workmanship with the current level of discoloration. The verdigris will also cause damage if not removed.... ...read the thread. very nice repatination work and being katakiribori work probably make it alittle easier. My understanding is that the somin tsuba had electroplated gold which needed to be removed, hence also the need to repatinate, but would this hamamono also need to be repatinated....? -Junichi