kaigunair

..... ..... ... :? ..... ... Hmmm...well, taken to extreme, I see why a mainly Tosho tsuba collector might view the machibori kinko stuff as superfluous fluff. Very appreciative of the pics which help me understand this technique. I see there is another thread on where the thread led too, so I'll go poke around there...

Wow, great photos Mike. Much appreciated. Sorry for the late reply, as I was attending to the little one last evening. I definitely understand the skill of the omori school a lot better. Thanks for taking the time to post those!

Curran, thanks and will inquire at a later date. That is a looker. Runagmc: thank you for the pics. That angle does show the under cut a lot better than most. I'm ever more impressed with the skill needed to carve out the waves from a solid block. It does make me wonder if it wouldn't have been easier for the waves to be done as an inlay, or at least part of them. Removing all that material, rounding out the waves, maybe a combination of casting and then finishing work would have been an easier way to go? Is the Omori school technique explained via photo essay in any books, Japanese or english? I'm thinking of something like Ford's video with the making of the tiger tsuba... I just keep getting more impressed. Please, more side angle pics!

Been looking at examples and reading various online articles about the Omori school. Beautiful stuff. Been trying to understand their famous "undercut" workmanship. I know its one of those things I probably need to see in person, but was wondering if anyone could provide macro photos of what they mean by an "undercut". I think I see this in Omori waves, but with photos being mostly head on, hard to see the depth of the undercut. I also read an article on tetsugundo about an undercut used to make a hole in a tree trunk, which I was trying to figure out how that would work. Was the Omori undercut done by carving away material from the base plate (Sukidashi bori 鋤出彫?), or from adding material on top of the baseplate and carving away at it (some sort of zogan + carving of the inlayed material). If the former, I'm thinking the base plate for Omori work must have been really thick. If the latter, is this considered a form of Takabori (高彫)? I'm also alittle unclear what constitues high -med- low relief carving, so any pics and explanations would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

neat. doesn't look like high quality work, but very functional. is there pic for the other side?

can't make the exhibit, but did the next best thing...bought the book. Boy, shipping from Europe is expensive!!!

Agreed. I had tried to answer the original post earlier in the thread, I was suprised to see where this thread went. Left me wondering where the specific blade with the damaged nakago being discussed came from. The initial post was just about general info on mantetsu vs koa isshin. The specific blade was brought up during an example, which then move the focus from the original question to the unusual comments regarding the specific blade. But returning to the original question: the difference between mantetsu and koa isshin. Hopefully the info provided settles that...?

I think Pete K. nailed it regarding why newbies like myself MUST go t shows. I have no excuse for not going to the August show in the past years, and hope to correct that going forward. I do wonder if there's any way to make it easier for overseas dealers to come to the shows and set up. They already have a higher airfare and travel fees, but having more of the dealers, especially the larger stores in Japan, may be a bigger pull for customers and increase admission fee intake. In a similar vein, at the local militaria shows, the table fees are much much cheaper. This makes it much easier for non-dealers like myself, those of us on the hobby side, to set up a table with our little goodies. We may not have all the "bling" of the dealers, but most of my finds are from tables from fellow hobbyests vs dealer tables for various reasons. I know it would be hard to introduce a "tiered" table fee system, but that could be key to getting a good balance of appealing tables vs customers paying admission (and buying) vs revenue stream for clubs. I wonder how shows might be better advertised to the general public too. I recall that whenever "antiques roadshow" rolls into town, there are lines out the door with people bringing in items. Wouldn't that be great if something similar happened at the various sword shows... From what I hear, the shows are getting smaller each year while fees naturally go up. This doesn't bode well for the future. Maybe it would be better to have a thread with suggestions would be a more constructive use of the forum "brain trust"....

Not to hijack this thread, but that figure of the page holding a sword looks like the copper figure in the large tsuba I posted a while back, which also had kanji related to poems or literary treasure.....the gears are turning..

I stumbled across Paul Martin's website (http://www.thejapanesesword.com/art-swords) and his webpage offering to act as an agent for anyone wanting to purchase items from several different Japanese nihonto website. I had been eyeing a piece at one of the stores listed, Tsuruginomiya. It wasn't an extraordinarily expensive or rare piece; it was one of the relatively affordable items, so I wasn't sure if it would be worth his time (he doesn't charge any commissions) as I wanted to negotiate the price. Still, I sent him a PM. Paul emailed me back quickly for the details and my offer and also handled my request very quickly Then he put me into direct contact with the seller to workout payment. Long story short, the deal went off without a hitch and I'm the happy owner of another lovely tsuba! Ultimately he was able to work out what amounts to about a 5% discount from the price, which was great. I will definitely be using him again when the occasion arises and I hope this endorsement empowers others who may have longed for pieces on Japanese dealer sites but didn't know where to turn too, to pursue those items through Paul. Thanks Paul! :D PS: Tsuruginomiya also deserves props, as they did THE BEST packing job I've ever seen for a tsuba, or any package for that matter, even considering they typical Japanese packing job done. Huge over sized box, put tsuba into a nice silk bag and cardboard box, separately wrapped the wooden box, and send certificate in a plastic folder. Lots of bubble wrap and paper padding. Really says a lot to me about the company.

Ah, I understand now. The two tsuba pics were to demonstrate a photoshopped tsuba, correct? Got it. I'm pretty sure the seller didn't go that far to doctor the photos posted on his listing. While I'm sure that happens a lot, I would see that as a much easier case to show ebay it was fraud. But good point nonetheless... Thanks Uwe. (I hope you didn't end up buying that tsuba based on the photoshopped pic, but on iron it still a nice looking one to me...)

Thanks John for the info on the nerigawa tsubas. Would be a great book/forum thread in itself. Thanks also for the correction on the terms + the kanji!

That is a lovely tsuba! But please forgive my misunderstanding, as I'm not sure I understand the relevance. Did you have this restored? Or are they two different tsubas? One looks iron and the other shakudo, so was the iron given a surface treatment? I would have gone after that in the first state if it showed up on ebay as the skill is very evident. This tsuba deserves its own thread in the tosogu section!

Ok, I couldn't leave well enough alone... In the example kozuka, we have katakiri bori, initially was developed to emulate the brush strokes of the great sumi ink masters. While it looks seemingly plain and simple by western standards, the origins were to emulate again, fine art. This is in contrast to the stampings and cutouts found on early iron tsubas, which while often resembling simple motifs, may have initially been done to lighten the tsuba when acting as a weight/counterbalance to the blade (Maybe even personalize a otherwise mass produced blade for a lowely ashigaru?). The use of leather, neri tsuba may indicate that on some blade shapes, the tsuba served a differnt purpose than counterbalance (guard for a slipperly handle, ability to more quickly pick up from the ground, etc...). hmmm...I wonder if leather tsuba examples also show sukashi or other designs....

Really have been appreciating the commentary and like Curran, didn't say much b/c I didn't have anything to contribute...until now . Great summary of the machibori school Ford. The quote I pulled I felt was very important because I think some nihonto collectors stay away from machibori for the exact reason that "it wasn't really for samurai....unlike iron tsubas". I would submit a similar sentiment could be held of iron tsubas, in light of the origins for the early iron tsubas that seem to have a large appeal for blade collectors. From my current understanding, mounted samurai of the earlier periods would have used tachi's, and examples from that period were often much different from the iron tsubas that are so highly regarded. The origin of the iron tsubas were for the ashigaru (I think there is an earlier term I disremember now), or the lowest foot soldier or page who initially carried a tsuba-less sword. He most likely was equipped by his samurai lord and possibly unable to afford his own gear. So while machibori was supported by non-samurai with the money to afford the fine arts, iron tsubas were also originally for non-samurai who had neither the funds nor the ability to pay for fine art... (here I am stirring the pot!) Now when the whole zen / tea influence came into picture and iron caught on with the upper classes, that's when the money followed the art and that's a different ball game, at least to me...

Thanks all for the lumps, some better received than others. FYI, it was a buy-it-now, and the price was around a grand. So I wasn't expecting anything special, but wasn't expecting the fatal flaws. Out of polish, rust, nicks, OK. Even a ww2 gendaito by an unknown smith would be better than this, even some showato. The blisters, replaced habaki, multiple openings = should have been disclosed; non-disclosure = not what I paid for; attitude of seller = dishonest. I was unfortunately drawn to this because it had a habaki with my family mon and thought it would make it possibly worth of preservation from a personal standpoint, not a financial one. The types of flaws present mean I won't even try with this one. (my turn to ramble: ) If it wasn't for ebay, my other collection of specialized militaria would be non-existent or a fraction of the size and variety it was. Been watching the Japanese military section of ebay daily for over 10 years (not just a few weeks); not specifically looking for nihonto, but I have browsed may a nihonto post over the years. But I see now nihonto is a different story; many nihonto collectors use it to drop junk on an unsuspecting public. And the most wary listings to avoid are from people who collect nihonto. Unfortunately, like the public perception of car salesmen, the more this happens, the larger the risk that this type of thinking might unfairly transfer to even the true nihonto dealers. Maybe "german militaria dealers" is a better example than car salesmen. This would be truly unfortunate being what nihonto was supposed to represent in the first place as the "soul of the samurai" and a somewhat physical embodiment of the the code of bushido. Lesson learned: assume any nihonto listing on ebay is suspect. double if its from a nihonto collector regardless of price, but especially if less than a few thousand dollars. Ebay does have its place though. A interesting point to me when speaking to many older collectors is that here in the states, they talk about starting off buying blades when these were going for less than a $100, maybe less than $10, or some family member gave them one. Well, 3 or 4 generations later, there are no hand-me-down swords, the good ones sold to collectors long ago. And there also aren't piles of swords at the local gun shows or flea market equivalents selling blades at that $10 price point (adjusted for inflation of course) to "introduce" people into this area of collecting. I look at the great nihonto collections of years past (been buying many a past auction catalogue and out-of-print book on a prominent turn-of-the-century collector's collection), and I envy the original prices they paid, even up to the 1960s and 70s. Parting thought: So for all the looking down on "newbies" like myself who have bought on ebay, I think those who have been at this much longer might want to consider where they started, as I don't think most started off reading John Y's (or perhaps Joly/Arai's book) and doing countless hours of research before buying their first blade.... (that might make a interesting thread: "How did you come by your very first blade, who was president, and what did you pay?"....)

Update: ebay stated that "the item you received matched the seller's description but you no longer wanted the item. eBay Buyer Protection doesn't cover situations where an item is accurately described." Blah. How in the world do they get that it was "Accurately described"? Will try my credit card directly now. And shop on ebay less...

I love the info on armor! So much more sparse than Nihonto and tosogu info. Thanks Marcus! (I bought all the english titles I could over the holidays from lulu.com...they're great!)

Thanks Ted. Very good points for me to remember when I attend the August show.

good point henry. any reason why latex/non-latex rubber gloves shouldn't be used to handle kinko? thinking about bringing a box of those marked with initials or something for people to use to handle items. cheaper than cotton gloves. I've also seen white cotton gloves with yellow latex dots on the finger tips at the local $1 Japanese store. just checking to see if the non slid latex/rubber is safe for kinko...

I first though of golgotha with the three trees, but then realized in the full kozuka pics there are actually 4 trees. Then there is the fact that the crane = peace in Japan, like the dove.... but this is really a post war symbol via the Sadako story (before this usually meant luck if I'm not mistaken). gotta be careful in this territory! looking at the bid history, perhaps someone may have seen this post in the morning and concured with you Brian . neat thread. looking forward to more pics since I don't have any items to contribute... well, to validate this post with relevant images, here's my contributions: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/ ... d=&page=13 http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms ... tails.aspx

do a search for "Green papers" on the forum. looks like these don't carry much weight any more, so people do get pieces repapered...

Thanks all. Don't have any pads for any of my tsuba or tsuba boxes yet, but will look to pick some up. Glad to know that if I say something at the next meeting, it won't be just me making something up out of thin air...

This has been covered in many nihonto books regarding how to properly handle a Japanese blade. Question: are there similar rules and guidelines for tosogu and/or tsuba? Perhaps there are difference when handling iron tsuba vs kinko tsuba? I had brought in a fairly nice tsuba to share at my local club. I was shocked to see members handling it with their bare hands, even rubbing their fingers over the designs, not to mention speaking over the tsuba; done even by members that others said were knowledgeable about tsuba (though club is heavily into iron). Maybe this is ok for iron tsuba? I didn't want to say anything since it was only my second time attending and first since joining, but when I got home, I wiped it down with alcohol and did a dry wipe with tissue. I keep thinking I need to clean it again, to make sure the copper ishiguro surface didn't pick up anything nor the bori designs . I'm thinking about bringing latex gloves or buying extra pairs of white gloves to bring. The proper method for handling and observing blades is taught, and new guests are told not to touch any of the blades brought unless they know how to properly handle. I was surprised the same care wasn't afforded my poor tsuba . Is there a kantai handling guide for tsuba online? I would like to participate in the club by bringing items, and I'm thinking of at least saying for my item, to put on the gloves or don't handle. I will be bringing in a more pedestrian kozuka this week...

I see how I didn't specify which of his books I was talking about, so to finish my contribution: http://www.amazon.com/Genealogies-Japan ... 3842359543 http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/t ... 23849.html From one newbie to another, the sempai's here are a great bunch, who freely share their time and knowledge. You and I need to acknowledge that we are the ones who are taking more than we contribute at this point in time. Final warning: Don't get off on the wrong foot.