kaigunair

I recall a similar effect on a set papered to the yasuda I once owned. But it's a good reminder to view tosogu in natural light to see what effects their makers may have been playing with, or at least what the wearers would have seen. A long time and knowledgable collector shared an insight to this affect: to keep pieces out to view them as the daylight changes. I keep a small display on a bedroom tansu for this purpose and even tetsu Tsuba appear to take on different character or feel during different parts of the day.

Hi Alton, I picked up a copper ebi a while ago. I'd add silver to your list of metals used, though I think I've only seen insects done in silver. There is a collector of these who exhibits at the August show, though he mostly exhibits cloisonné and bonboneri. He has a book on those two, but don't think one on the okimono. He's in the US, and might have info you're interest in. http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Cloisonne-Enamels-Collectors-Reference/dp/0979530318

Ah, sorry Jean. I saw "lacquered tsuba" and immediately thought leather. Regarding wooden, I've only seen late edo examples, and could only tell because because the lacquer was chipped that it was wooden vs. leather. If lacquer is intact, I might be harder to discern whether thee core of these light weight tsuba are leather vs wooden? I have a lacquer example where one of the layers has bubbled from the inside and cracked the surface, indicating it was leather and not wooden.

Well, since no one else is replying.... As was mentioned, seems like they were used early on with black lacquer - mostly dogu like a tosho. From what I can tell, seems the fell out of favor in lieu of iron and metal tsuba, then came back en vogue late Edo period, with some very gussied up examples. Probably a similar reasoning as the leather gusoku armors of the same period. The big koshirae book has pics of the earlier ones. I recall some pics from swords taken from temple rafters that had a number of lacquered leather tsuba. The Edo and later period ones can look both understated (i.e. formal fittings) or pretty fancy. Have seen both maki-e as well as pressed designs in these. Can you narrow down what specifically you're looking for?

Probably more trees in the area the further back you go. Regarding the walls, perhaps they were left out intentionally, as the castle doesn't appear to be the focus of the full image. would fit the kano school style of landscape painting....? http://www.seejapan.co.uk/Libraries/Images/Matsuyama_castle_in_Japan.sflb.ashx

The image on the left looks like the keep in Matsuyama: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Matsuyama_Castle_Tower%28Iyo%29_JAPAN.JPG

was completed in 2013 and handed over for distribution. haven't heard anything in a while, so pm me for a copy...

Before this thread, I would have said no. I would have seen the nanako background, with similar punches on the flowers, and thought, "poor nanako work" and "hamamono". It could be this is more evident in magnification, and the nanako looks much better in normal viewing. Even the newer, repair work seems not as precise as many a high quality machibori piece. But herein lies my struggle: that this piece being ostensibly a much older, historical piece, the quality of work, the nanako in particular, I would have dismissed in a later period work is more than acceptable for a piece from this period. I still have a long ways to go... Regarding the fragility of kogai vs kozuka or ???, the one example kogai I have is pretty stout and having seem many a banged up kozuka around, it makes me wonder how the kogai's were being used that caused so much of the damage that required them to be remounted? Wouldn't most rough usage also deteriorate the design? I can understand if kogai fell out of fashion and so perfectly good pieces were remounted as kozuka. But what particular kogai use leaves the body severely worn and damaged without corresponding wear on the design?

Brian, that would make sense . The original nanaka was very rough indeed...

Was looking at the hi-rez pics of a juyo ko-mino kozuka. Pics are good, so good that and it makes me wonder about the seemingly different nanako when you compare that surface behind the design to the rest of the background. It doesn't seem to be just normal wear, but that the background not under the design was redone at sometime. Is this a kantei point of ko-mino to have different nanako? Or is this sort of retexturing acceptable for such a piece (to get juyo)? Just me or is something weird going on here? http://www.aoijapan.com/kozuka-mumei-ko-mino-school-55th-nbthk-juyo-tosogu

Speaking of ships and sails, the idea that tsuba collecting in Europe or elsewhere is what gave or currently gives tsuba its value is an intriguing notion. If a vast majority of people who buy tsuba are working in this mindset, then really, what are they collecting but stuff which had no inherent value when it was created and is only given value by the current owner and zeitgeist? But we know that some tsuba, definitely not all tsuba but a fair amount given the number of bushi and nobles and wealth merchants in old Japan, at the time of their creation, were created with much effort and though and skill and resources from both the artists/craftsmen as well as the orderer/buyer. The study and appreciation of the characteristics that identify these tsubas is what would enable a "right" valuation of a tsuba, which would also be in part a determination of its worth compared to others. If the economic tides both lift and lower boats, then a connoisseur would welcome low tides since he has already properly valued the tsuba in his mind. That tsuba can be considered an accessory to a sword, and therefore diminished by this position, does not make sense when we consider the historical rise of the tsuba as the ideal object for signaling a bushi's standing and tastes in Japan. As nihonto became less used, the tsuba probably became even more important, for both avoiding a fight (who would dare attack someone attached to the Shogun) as well as getting business or just being invited to the country club? A better analogy is the wrist watch. It is worn everyday and everyone, and could also be considered just an accessory to a person's attire. The one sold at the drug store is just as reliable as the one sold at a high end boutique. Also, one might argue they are unnecessary, having been replaced by the clocks on our smart phones (who still wears one? - I do, and it has both actual hands and a digital read out ). But why are there watches worth tens of thousands of dollars or more? There there is the question whether seiko collectors should be pitied by the omega and tag heuer collectors, who, in turn are pitied rolex collectors. Not to mention how the Phillip Patek and Cartier collectors feel about the poor Movado saps! Shaking his head at everyone is probably the old collector who started out with pocket watches or tinkers with repairing the movements. The first thing he does when a watch, any watch, is place in front of him is to flip it over and open up the case. Then he carefully looks through his magnifier to examine each gear and sprocket and jewel, then considers the overall layout of the the various complications. Finally he considers the overall movement and ponders what went through the watchmaker's mind when it was being put together. When he's finished, he's able to place the watch's value relative to all the others he's seen and played with, and should he be able to afford the asking price, knows that he has parted well with his hard earned cash. Else, my other theory is that the bottom's not falling out, its just that the nicer $ to Yen exchange rate means these things should be at least 20% cheaper now than they were 6 months ago, plus antiques/collectibles are never as liquid as stocks or precious metals....

Yes, not pre-edo, just got me thinking about the topic. I was wondering what period this would be from. Late edo, Meiji or could it be Taisho or Showa? What parameters to date this? Either way, I had thought I found to perfect item to celebrate a bunch of good things. Something about it seemed very appealing, sedate but badazz at the same time. But in the end I missed out by missing an email, and the seller sold it out from under me. Trying to make the best out of a bad experience by learning more about it anyway. Thanks for the name of this form guido.

I believe this set was at the august show in SF too. A kozuka with an almost identical theme was up on ebay not that long ago. could have been the missing item from this set. it got pulled down before the auction ended , so someone probably got a pretty good deal....

pic:

Thanks all for the great info. Much appreciated. The UK Token minutes are a hoot to read. They really knew how to hold meetings. This is a wakizashi I missed due to a misplaced paypal email. Really upset about that. The koshirae is what made it for me, but I have not had much luck dating this style: (I can't see to upload at this time. will try again later tonight - useless post w/o, I know...) It has leather covered saya, f/k, and tsuba. Only the menuki and kurigata are metal. Probably late edo or even meiji, but its the 2nd example of this type I've ever seen (the first being an all leather dai-sho pair with no menuki whatsoever and horn kurigata.

Thanks jussi. I do have that book (2 copies actually) and it is really nice reference. I also have Marcus' book on the subject. I was wondering if there are any articles out there about older koshirae and styles. I'm thinking any papered examples are probably juyo.

Seems like a topic that could use some discussion. Most koshirae appear to be from the 1860s onward. What are important characteristics to look for in earlier koshirae, especially those not related to court usage (i.e. not for tachi)? Any methods for dating urushi or the lacquer work on saya?

I had been watching this with interest, thinking it would make a good candidate for destructive testing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161666129361?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D161666129361%26_rdc%3D1 This appears to be an exact example of the book sample, and better than the last example posted in the forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7626-tosa-kuni-ju-myochin-munetoshi/page-2 (the example on page 2 of the thread has a casting error in the nakago-ana which this and the book example does not share). The controversy over cast and this tsuba example is found here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7939-the-last-word-on-cast-iron-tsuba/?hl=%2Bmyochin+%2Bcast&do=findComment&comment=79418 I was hoping having this as an example and by putting it through the ringer, might have answered some basic questions regarding construction and more importantly, age. But it seems someone wanted it more badly.... I'm pretty certain all the dents and divots match up to the book example, not to mention all the curves and crevices. The one pictured in the book is sans any rust, which is interesting in itself., but this makes the b&w picture harder to make out some of the details. Would be very helpfu if anyone can identify physical differences between the two I might have missed. Else, I would hazard a guess these two came from the exact same mold/workshop, and other examples might come from castings of these tsuba (i.e. cast of a cast) or possibly later when the original die/mold was deteriorating....

! This is horrible! But thanks for sounding the warning bell and for such an informative post.

well that is different. though, the close up pics all show the opening to the kozuka on the left side, none with the opening on the right side (would indicate the flip side). The pictures of the kozuka in the saya shows that at least one side is close (not opened). Wonder if there is a mistake in the listing or if indeed, this is a two sided kozuka....

Steve, a very interesting question indeed. If "real art" equates to "high art" / "exceptional art", then ability & devotion alone would need to be combined with time + means in order to develop an artist's skills throughout a lifetime in order to create "exceptional" pieces of art. Time + means to support such an endeavor would most naturally occur in a relatively prosperous and leisurely environment. So an equally valid question is why wouldn't the "high arts" be connect with the "privileged"? In what conditions and eras in time do we find "high arts" not connected with privilege/wealth/leisure? Re: the panel. I like it!

:thumbsup:

Thanks john. Saw that one along with another from Christies, but the latter didn't have good images. This one looks almost identical to cherry blossoms to me, but in context of the overall design makes sense that it would be roses. Been an interesting learning experience....

Ah, yamabuki and "Kerria". Thanks all! Definitely doesn't look like a western rose. Really appreciate the help and makes me glad there is a forum like this, with people like you on it!

Thank you Guido and Morita-San! No luck with the kamons, so I appreciate the new research leads!