kaigunair

I had a chance to hear Bill talk about this show over dinner at the SF show. He had a lot of progressive ideas for the baltimore show, like inviting various martial arts clubs and Japanese cultural clubs to perform at slotted times, as well as choosing a famiily friendly venue (or at least, maybe the future events?). I think this will bring in a lot of new folks to a nihonto show. While they may not be big spenders, at first, he has a multi-year vision with the focus to get more people interested in nihonto collecting. Still, I can imagine some well-heeled martial arts practitioners or parents of such picking a few pieces, or at least getting website info from dealers and then buying around christmas. This may make it more tedious/frustrating for regular dealers, since people will have "stupid" questions as well as similar comments of what they heard about nihonto. But I believe the idea is to make it less of a club gathering, and a more inclusive public event to introduce people into the world of nihonto through the use of Japanese culture. Make future collectors from people who are already interested in Japanese culture. Its pretty exciting if you think about it. Hopefully the show will have ongoing intro workshops (nihonto and TOSOGU please) and proper handling guides and etiquette. Also hope the dealers don't get too upset with all the neophyte questions...probably best to think themselves as much nihonto ambassadors as dealers at this show, with the dividends expected in a few years time vs immediately.

Thank you morita-san and John! Much appreciated!

I came across this iron tsuba school but couldn't figure out the kanji: 喜田村 Full entry is 喜田村一派鐔 Normal translation is Kitamura, but can't find a tsuba school with that name. I thought it could be the yoshiro tsuba school, but the last kanji 村 wouldn't make sense. Another difficult one: 根抜 Is this nenuki? I think I have this one properly translated, but any correction is appreciated: 轡師鐔 - horsebit maker tsuba Thank you in advance!

Hmmm...my initial thoughts were fa-i-ku or re-pro-dakuzhun. My untrained eyes say these seem to be age modern repros. Just like with nihonto, pictures of the inside/underside are important. The first looks like its trying to be a namban design (copy of something european). I believe the first 2nd is sort of a peach shape or "momo" kabuto.

I was wondering how a Gassan could be dated taisho 3, and the grandparents supposidly immigrated in 1915. Then I saw the update in the posts below, which makes more sense. A ww2 bring back from a Japanese-american serving in the pacific. Just as interesting as the Gassan blade would be to know more about the Millitary Intelligence Unit (MIS) his grandfather served in. Jpn-Americans serving in the pacific. They get much less press than the 442nd/100th but have a facinating history also. FYI, their first base/classroom in the SF Presidio is being converted into a museum. Thanks for the most interesting post!

Pm sent Mariusz.

thanks Christian and David. I was hoping I could call "sour grapes!", but now I'm just dissapointed I was on PST. Guess the best I can do is make a "Saio's horse" call....perhaps a great kinko tsuba will come my way soon....

One step up from "Ultimate Warrior" series. The "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" style fighting was such a turn off; totally unnecessary and didn't add a bit to the show. While nice to see samurai history getting more exposure, it pains me to think that this is what people will think how samurai "really fought" since it was a national geographic documentary. So much missing info on the actual grave site; so much forensic science also missing. Couldn't tell if it was full skeletons found or just heads, as that would have been pretty significant. I wonder what sort of artifacts were found, or are we to assume these bodies buried completely naked? Why wasn't any of these shown or commented on as they would speak volumes of who was really buried there.... Guess its onto the web to figure out what was really found at this dig (from the 1950s).... Found a very interesting article discussing the study of yari/spear marks on the skull. That makes more sense for so many reasons. I wonder if the "arrow" injury was actually a spear mark, and if many of the injuries attributed to tachi/uchigata were in fact naginata. http://www.academia.edu/3415007/Stab_Ma ... akura_City

Bump (Perhaps this a member's auction or something? Please feel free to PM me info....) Thanks in advance.

Saw this one in the AM but someone had already gotten the jump on it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Mito-Tsub ... _435wt_935 As it has my family kamon, it definitely piqued my interest. I liked the rendering of the kamons, but they are done almost too well to be early work (at least IMO). Surface also seems very smooth (not much activity). I'm thinking late Edo, or possibly a modern work. Would appreciate any pointers from the iron collectors regarding how to judge works like this one. Thanks in advance! Edit: Looks like the kamons are iron and not some sort of inlay as I initially thought. Must be original to the plate? I've changed the thread title as I don't believe they could have been "added" later....

Hi Jean, Just for clarification, I wasn't advocating the restoration of "beat up" pieces, ones where the inlay or carving or groundwork was damaged and a complete rebuildling is necessary. I was thinking more along the lines of quality kinko soft metal items that have been over cleaned or have some oxidation damage. But perhaps the restoration can also include inlaying missing pieces or removing scratches? I wonder how many of the great Edo works from the Boston museums or other online catalogues which we see regularly posted up on the boards have been repatinated or prehaps had more extensive restorationis. I believe museums restore items on a regular basis prior to exhibition, and I doubt an exception is carved out for tosogu. In fact, restoration work is alluded to in the bio one of our esteemed members here. It is a perhaps a testament to his work and others like him that so many museum pieces are in pristine condition, and no one questions whether a restoration job was done at all. I wonder how many papered items coming from dealers in Japan, who have more access to tosogu makers and where rokusho is also more commercially available, have been restored prior to papering. I believe kinko works are judged more upon the execution of the design elements and the signature, vs whether the patination is original or in the best condition. Would you skip over a Natsuo or Somin tsuba that had been repatinated due to bad storage resulting in oxidation, but whose original design was still original? If so, I'd love for you to send them my way! Good discussion !

Very interesting comments! I'm with Brian on Iron tsubas, probably worse, so I can't add much there. However, I did want to point out that its only recently that fortune cookies have been made in China to be sold to the US. Not only are fortune cookies more US than Chinese, their origins are more Japanese than Chinese. Looking for fortune cookies to be given out at a restaurant in China is like looking for California rolls in a sushi restaurant in Japan; it could happen but not the norm. But returning to the tsuba in question....

Jean, As someone who has had tosogu restored by a professional tsubako, I have some interest in this question. My question is a generalization and not specific to any of the two pieces in your original post. It is perfectly acceptable for a beat up blade with deep rust and pits to be sent to a polisher who removes more of the metal and then uses hadori to definte the hamon. Why would it be different for tosogu which have been damaged or neglected to receive a slight polish and some repatination? In both processes, age and neglect have caused the damage, and the restoration is done to bring the piece back to state where collectors can appreciate the original beauty. I can understand perhaps with old Iron pieces that there is a certain patina which is like furniture, but Edo kinko works, especially late Edo would seem more appreciated for the execution of the design, like an oil painting or nihonto. I am NOT saying that any work done to kinko togosu qualifies as restoration. In fact, just like with nihonto, attempts to clean or remove rust and vertegris cause more harm than good and should reduce value. But if there are famous and recognized toshigi, wouldn't it be natural to have something similar for tosogu? I guess I don't understand why some view tosogu, especially late edo kinko, more like antique furniture (any refinishing is very very bad) instead of nihonto or perhaps even oil paintings (repair/restoration is perfectly acceptable).

Hi Ken, Looks like the verdigris could be possibly cleaned off but the insects themselves are pretty worn down, as do parts of the nanako/circle punch groundwork. I would think that would be very difficult to repair, if not expensive. Looks like this one has lived a hard life. I totally understand the interest in collecting anything that fits within your theme....I'd feel the same way about examples with my family kamon. I'd be more concerned about/ I am wondering if this is kitch or country work or more modern work artificially aged? One aspect I'd be interested in knowing about is in regards to the fern like leaf at the 6 o'clock (or 3 o'clock per the sideway orientation). It has the gold coloring applied even in the areas between the leaves. I'm thinking construction was a separate piece and applied onto the main tsuba plate. If so, is the manner in which this was done indicative of edo/meiji hamamono-type pieces or is this indicative of chinese fakes?

Hi David, Thanks much for the info on the umetada school and the generous offer! I will see if I can source the NBTHK journals locally, but it is appreciated.

Thanks again John and appreciate the comments. No hard stances on my part, just fishing for information and posting what I find. Trying to figure out a possible direction in my collecting is all. Was also reading that the founder of the tetsugendo school came out of choshu into Edo, which might be a nice avenue for me to pursue. http://www.shibuiswords.com/bushuchoshu.htm Thanks again. :D

Any info on well known choshu kinko smiths? Found a couple listed from http://world.choshuya.co.jp/tousougu/ : Nakai Zensuke Tomotsune (Nakai School) Okada Nobumasa (Okada School) Taira Tomokiyo (Yazu/Yaji School)

thanks ! Some interesting info from http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/ChoshuTsuba.html: The early schools were ko-shoami smiths. The Okada came from the Umetada. In the middle part of the Edo period, most of the all schools in Choshu Province started interacting with craftsmen of the Ito school in Edo Metropolis. They list 9: Kawaji, Nakai, Okamoto, Okada, Kaneko, Nakahara, Fujii, Inoue and Yamichi. Ito/Itoga=Edo school (is this more of a style?) Nakahara=Nakabara? Yamichi=Yaji? Tomohisa?

Thanks John (your page was the source of the initial 11 :D ). So is Umetada not considered one of the 11?

Was trying to find out what tsuba/tosogu school are considered to be from Choshu/Nagato. I kept reading about the "11 choshu schools", so went about looking for a list of these schools. One list I came accross has 11, another has 8, but even here there are a few between them don't match. Maybe there are some alternative readings of the same kanji or the same school known by different names? Any clarification would be much appreciated. List 1 from 'Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study' 1. Kawaji, 2. Nakai, 3. Okamoto 4. Itoga, 5. Okada, 6. Kaneko, 7. Nakabara, 8. Inoue, 9. Fuji, 10. Yaji, 11. Tomohisa (branch family of Kawaji) List 2: 1. Kawaji 2. Nakai 3. Okamoto 4. Okada 5. Nakabara 6. Inouye 7. Yaji (not Hachido) 8. Kaneko 9. Umetada 10. Fujii thanks in advance.

Thanks! Much appreciated. Edit: Just realized, Choshu=Nagato=Yamaguchi. Doh, can't believe I forgot this.

I recall reading that a certain clan had a new year tradition of asking whether it was time to rebel against the tokugawa. Something like whether they were strong enough yet. Does anyone recall which clan this was?

花押 = flower stamp aka seal/kao Don't feel bad! I had the same question before. All are lovely pieces. I think the rendering of the nightingale shows the differences in the workmanship and points to different smiths. I personally like the kozuka the best of out of the three. I also like the kabutogane moon theme and the background texturing .... Thanks for sharing!

Otsuki = Big Moon. 大月 Its one of the schools I really enjoy...must be the moon themes. I also posted an aritsune tsuba, one of my first "quality" pieces and he had trained under this school. Must be why I look out for this school's work. The kozuka pic is very pixelated, so perhaps a better quality photo would showcase the work. Moon in clouds seems like it could be well rendered, but as it is, the pixels make it looks a bad knock-off. Also can't see the quality of the crow(?) or perhaps a egret of some sort? Looking forward to learning and seeing more.

Thanks Jean and Pete for the info. I don't know how to differentiate between ito, owari, hoan or tadatsugu, but the Pete's call seems like the best candidate to my uniformed eye (was great meeting you at the show too!). There was post on tadatusgu with the haynes info talking about simple sukashi work. Then there's this papered piece which looks darn close: http://yakiba.com/Tsuba_Tadatsugu.htm I think there may be some kanji scratch marks on my little tsuba, similar to the one listed on yakiba but even more faint. Problem is, they are on the wrong side and face of the tsuba compared to the yakiba, so perhaps it is my mind playing tricks with me....