kaigunair

Trying to finish up the last of the translations. Any help with the following translations related to goto school info would be much appreciated. My format is as follows: 1st line - original Japanese kanji / my translation 2nd line - my hiragana (pronunciation) translation 後藤家出身の蓍名工– Master craftsmen from the Goto School ごとうけしゅっしんのしめいこ 後藤姓を名乗る別人– Others Using the Goto Surname ごとうせいをのなのるべつじん 金蓙後藤 三郎光次家 – Gold Foundry Goto Saburo Mitsutsugu School きんざごとうさんぶろみつつぐ 後藤家に関する史  資料- Goto School History  Archives ごとうけ　に　かんするし　　しりょう [極帳] と [彫物 控帳] – Contracts and Carving Notebooks ごとうけ　と　ほりものこうちょう 後藤家の関与した大判金 – Goto School Involvement with Oban Gold Coins ごとうけ　の　かんよした　　おおばんきん 定法之事 – Methods of Business じょうほうのこと 後藤家雑記 – Goto School Miscellaneous Notes ごとうけざっき [金工鑑定秘訣] その地– Kinko Appraisement Secrets 「きんこかんていひけつ」そのじ Thanks in advance!

It was amazing seeing how small and detailed the work on the kozuka was in person!

Great educational post Ford! Thanks!

scary good!

Stylized pine needles indeed. Gotta love the symbolisms/sylizations used in sukashi work... Chidori is a better theme than persimons. Not sure, but according to this tsuba example, the birds here are sea gulls, though that might just be a Japanese to english translation. But the rendering of a round body seem to match the stylized birds here too. http://sanmei.com/contents/media/tuba_guard8012.html So birds and needles it seems...

Definitely was one I considered. Nice pick up.

Sukashi Iron Tsubas. How's that for obvious? I think the first isegg plant and (squash? perssimmon?) *wrong and wrong* themed. The other paulownia. (Per latter comments, looks like it is pine needles and chidori/sea gull....)

Thanks all for the input! Was definitely struggling to figure out how to tell zogan from electroplate so I'm glad to be in good company. Nice to know that its zogan work! Wow, like nordstrom/bloomingdale wives. Google search came up lots of stories about what happened to many wanna-be Mitsukoshi wives during the bust of the 90's. Very sad. Hmmm...well now, if I see my little one wearing any other obidomi than what I pick up for her, that boy better high tail it before I go nihonto on him! Not as bad as that whole colored wrist band issue in the schools a few years back, but mark me as an uber conservative when it comes to my daughter!

great explanation! Personally, I have yet to see raden work that appeals to me other than some saya work, and usually the lacquer has some other color than black or texturing. When I see it on katana stands, it reminds me of overly gaudy export work or chinese fakes, esp when on black black ground. I dunno why I can't seem to appreciate it. Would love to see examples of great raden work (perhaps I'm only seeing the junk stuff)...

Just purchased this one. I liked it based on the sakura theme and the fact that it looks like kin zogan work identical to that used for kodogu/tosogu. This is an obidome, or a small decoration used in the wearing of kimono by women.....goes on a rope that would be front and center of the ribbon/bow of the kimono. Hoping my little one will appreciate it someday. I'm wondering if I was off on the technique used to inlay the sakura and this is some modern electro plating....? The loss on the sakura makes me suspect this is maybe not inlay work. Thanks in advance!

Looks like a very elegant piece. Looking forward to more detailed pics. I must admit, like top level goto pieces, I don't have the sense of refinement to fully appreciate it yet, but am glad to see and read about it. Thanks for sharing it Pete!

I agree. What I meant was I would have expected the the detailing on the twists of the cloth would have been more defined by a mainline hamano smith. Also some of the details of raiden's muscles. But again, not sure if this is due to wear or lack of skill. Thanks to the many other who have commented. I am enjoying the thread!

Thanks for the comment barry. I see a lot of pieces being listed out of Canada lately. Seems to be a good body of collectors up in your parts (..or a flight of collectors who are liquidating their collections) :D . Brian, yes, hoping some of the "big guns" on the board will weigh in...I always enjoy reading those posts. Even more so when there is a disagreement and it goes back and forth for a while. Lots of useful info for noephytes like myself, but I also think the lines of debate are often crossed alittle too often in those discussions, which may be partly why some people hesitate to post the more interesting pieces from their collection here, to the detriment of the NMB tosogu forum...

The signature was Naoyuki (kao). I just didn't crack open the wakayama books to compare to those "genuine" ones as well as the kao. I just wanted to ponder the design and whether it was up to Hamano standards. Being on iron is what made it harder for me, though I did like the iron texture here... Ending price was $900, which is pretty high for an ebay listing of f/k. I believe it would be on the lower side when compared to the prices on dealer website listings for a mainline hamano (not sure if Naoyuki is mainline hamano or not). Yes, shame about the vertegris and rust. But I'm still trying to figure out if the lack of details is due to age and wear or due to less than Hamano school skill...

The activity on the tosogu section's been kinda of a snore lately. I have been putting together a little post on another piece I'd like to discuss, but need a few pics of another piece which I'll get over the weekend. In the mean time, I'm tossing this item up in hopes that it was make for interesting discussion in the tosogu section. I had seen this hamano-marked set pop up on ebay, and thought it was decent. Different in that it looked like iron base with kinko design on an f/k. The raiden(?) seemed decently rendered, but not that great. Wasn't sure if that was due to detail being lost in ware or just lower quality. I did NOT bid or win this auction. Attributed to Hamano Naoyuki (1745-1819). I didn't look up the signature, because I wanted to judge it based on the strength of the design itself. My thoughts were the iron was well done, not so much raiden. I was also keying in on the gold rope/threads. I was thinking a Hamano school smith would have rendered those better, but I also wondered if lack of detail could have been due to wear (if they were solid gold). The faces seemed to have some wear, but I was also trying to consider how small everything must be. Judging by the ending price, I think someone might have felt it was genuine. How would you judge this piece?

Seems like those bushi should have gotten tsuba's with the wheel & mantis themes!

My guess is that many dealers probably already restore tosogu. I'm thinking as long as it gets papered, if the craftsmanship is good no one cares, at least with kinko stuff. Iron and patina is a different beast. So it would be interesting to know if the NBTHK or NTHK papers restored tosogu....

Very interesting. If I had to guess, I'd think the brass was the original and the iron a possible copy, at least regarding the base plate. Much less fine detail in the iron, and the hair makes it look cast. Looking foward to the more experienced opinions!

Thanks again Bruno! The Christie's example has a metal color similar to mine. A slighty different rendition also, but definitely indicates that umetada looks correct. I wonder if ther was possibly a series where the lower butterfly slowly comes into the scene. The Christie's the lower cho is only showing anntenna, ours has two full touching antenna, would be pretty neat to find a partial/half body cho Tsuba. Very exciting indeed. But now I really hope mine wasn't a repro made when prices were heating up!

Nice set of late edo fittings. Not sure if they are higo fittings themselves, perhaps the tsuba is? I have a similar set on a wak with my mons on the lacquered saya; I do wonder if perhaps they could be post edo fittings, as I've seen many similar fittings on koshirae. Usually seem like they are some sort of semi-formal type tosogu. Compared to those on my wak, yours seem to be of a higher quality, in mint condition and have the hollyhock mon too. Can you get a close up of the nanako work?

Thanks David. I'll bring it to the next meeting to see if the corrosion I'm seeing is due to repatination or just normal or indicative of a modern fake. I hope of course it's something natural and perhaps just an effect of a ren wax or ibota coating. But I guess I just assume the worse until informed by more knowledge minds.

Thanks Bruno! Umetada it is. Much appreciated.

Another recent pick up, again I was drawn to the design which has some sentimental value for me - twin butterflies. Initially I had shown this to a friend many months ago but after he passed on it, I finally decided to pick it up. I wasn't in any hurry since it was iron and not kinko :D . I really am not sure where to begin with iron tsubas, but my strategy was to peruse books, websites and pictures for similar styles and designs. Not a masterpiece by a long shot, but hoping its a honest piece. dimensions are 77.2 x 73.9mm and 5.0mm thick. My guesses are 1) kaga myochin (based on rounded/pedal rim similar to http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynesTsu3.htm) or 2) ko-umetada or possibly (iron color and similar carving to http://www.shibuiswords.com/haynesTsu5.htm) 3) sado (from a picture in the translated "Tsuba an Asthetic Study") Period: Mid-late edo. (1700s-1800s) my observations of the possible kanei points: -color is more brownish/chocolate than pictures. -carving of the butterflies is more deeper in hand than picture. -horizonal marks around nakago ana -fairly thick so not early -little concerned that the rust/raise oxidation appears to be under the patina? -patina in the wings/antenna area looks ok, but the nakago ana seems alittle less undistrubed - maybe due to movement on/off a nakago? Am I even close? Thanks in advance.

IMO: nanban, chinese dragons/sea creatures...