kaigunair

Thanks everyone for the replies. Perhaps I should have separated out each item on its own post, to inquire about the specific attributes that it make so desirable... hmmm.... One of the problems I now see I've run into in my current pursuit of tosogu knowledge is focusing a lot more on the work itself vs understanding the tradition/style/school it comes out of. I definitely understand how value is connected to the historical context of an item, and also to the fame of the individual artist; Just hasn't been major part of my current studies. Most of the books I have in english are good in explaining the factual backgrounds of the various schools and artists (the sesko books are really the best sources I've run into). But unlike nihonto ranking of sharpness or cutting ability, I haven't found anything similar ranking system or "top 10" lists of tosogu artists/works other than very subjective descriptive terms. I also understand that such a ranking system for tosogu in a manner akin to the sharpness scale in nihonto IS a fool's errand (so many problems judging art, I get it). Still, I'd really be interested in reading a list of schools & artists, and why each one is desired. For an extremely basic example of a desirability list: Omori - undercut waves. Yoshioka - ground work. Tomei - millet nodules For these examples: Ezo: grass and insect themes on yamagane base, gold iro, katachi bori (maybe something about wabi sabi aesthetic) ko-Mino: ?? (taka bori floral themes, consideration of high quality early nanako work but normally found well worn down) Tom, thanks for the specific tip about how inspection of the base material is a key point in evaluating pieces such as these. This does sort of begin to veer toward the ilk of iron tsuba collecting, which I am as equally confused about. But it does help clarify some aspects of the trouble I'm having with these 3 pieces...

If you could crack open that nut alittle, would be much appreciated. Is it that they are top examples of early works of famous schools? Or are they middle I the road typical/representative examples that happen to be early? Would an appropriate analogy be the desirability of a musashi Tsuba? Value being derived by the person's significance vs the design (or base metal characteristics in the case of iron tsubas)?

As I struggle to understand and identify "quality" tosogu, items like these Juyo level pieces have me confused: http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/b00114.html http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00045.html Similarly, I find it difficult to understand why a piece such as this would be in the $17k price range? http://tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00042.html Are they Juyo level more for historical significance (very early pieces)? Are they are early pieces by famous schools thus warranting Juyo? Or is there a completely different reason? From an aesthetic perspective, while I find the details fairly well rendered, it doesn't seem to be in the same level of detail or artistic composition of really nice machibori late edo works. Especially the $17k kozuka piece, with the nanako being so well worn down (similar with the ezo menuki wear), the fine details seems to be lost, while the loss of the guilding/inlay would make it easy to think of lower quality work if only casually glanced over on a table full of tosogu. I definitely feel that if there was a table full of tosogu and I was told to pick out the top quality ones, I would have completely missed these three items. Would really appreciate some of the more seasoned members explaining how to discern top works such as these. What is making them so desirable? Thank you very much in advance.

nice example peter. I had a similar example and posted it on the forums a few months ago. I believe Umetada was one of the possible options of the tsuba like Peter's. I believe these do represent a family crest of two butterfly antennae to antennae...its actually the family crest used by a friend in the local club.

As a newcomer, I agree! I have books on tosogu schools and artists, books on mei's, and lots of books and auction catalogs with very lovely tosogu. Would love it if a "list of greats" were compiled, along with some representative pics and mei's. There is no local tosogu club, only a Nihonto club in which tosogu is either iron, goto, or kinko, so to speak.... This forum IS the local tosogu club. Thankful for all the input from such esteem members and wish so many weren't driven away or now just lurk in the shadows....then the rest of us might really learn something!

Inlay is probably shakudo, as is the tiger. Probably late edo tsuba, as well as the kozuka. I like the theme of the kozuka, makes me wonder if there is a story similar to the city mouse and country mouse in Japanese lore. Don't think the details of the workmanship is up to the well carved signature...does the ground work have really fine (or worn) texturing, or is it pretty basic/plain as shown in the photos?

Thanks John. My mistake in terms....I meant to say I was thinking of looking into my goto ref books for their rendition of Mino-bori works (hence, looking at later generations of goto; or maybe the kyo-goto book would be a more likely candidate for mino-bori style works). The intention was to photo for the thread a top quality mino-bori style tsuba to compare/contrast. I am still alittle foggy about where current thought is on what tradition the 1st goto master(s) came from, but that is a different thread. Apologies and I appreciate the correction!

I can give a translation of some of the phonetic (katakana characters) ones: black oiler: Ohomura green canteen: top two: Suka/Suga (I can't read the kanji) stitching: ikeuchi 1st and 3rd are possible last names, not sure about the canteen...

Hi Ken, While it is a nice tsuba indeed, I think your posted example may fall into the possible "workshop" category, which would make being unsigned fairly typical of this type. It may not be the best representative of the "quality but unsigned" which was the original title of the thread. I may be completely off, as I have not studied in depth mino works like this, but the upper quality examples seem to get the tiny tiny details in in a much sharper way. (note: I was looking for an example with insects in it, but have only located "nicer" ones with the flora design) http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/61/39/600187589665c7849deeb774dbdbb04e.jpg http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f8/e4/3cf8e4bb26d341debc7bfc0d3f5092ac.jpg Here's one that isn't as nice as the one above, but has insect themes:(couldn't find what it sold for) http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu/htm/1051_2000/1351_1400/1375/k1375_o.jpg I'll try to pull open the goto books this week to see if the later gens. have similar examples. I guess for "quality", I would expect sharper details in the rendering of the insects, including the gold inlay, as well even more fineness of the nanako. ( I really don't mean to be contrary for contrary's sake; I myself am trying to understand what separates the top quality tosogu from good or ok. Am totally open to correction (or flaming), either of which helps the learning process ) regards.

Much appreciated Chris. A lot to ponder over....

Thanks all for the info. Didn't realize that they would hold an item for 2 months! Any idea how quickly after submission do they require your to pick up the item? I am very curious on what grounds Japanese Customs could assess duty if you are a foreigner and bringing in your own personal item for shinsa (not talking about blades which I understand are considered weapons). Any way to declare something like a 9802? Or does one have to claim some sort of drawback when its re-exported at time of departure? Definitely see how if one is only doing a few items at a time, using an agent is the best way to go. But I was thinking since I might also be in Japan, and have half a dozen or more tosogu items I'd like to submit, might be a good time to try. The customs thing really bothers me though, for more reasons than one....

I have a relative that will be traveling to Japan and staying for about a month or so in the Tokyo area. I may even go along for a week or so. I was thinking it might be a good time to try to submit a few tosogu, in person, for NBTHK papering while I'm there. I was wondering if someone could let me know how long the NBTHK usually holds an item for submission, specifically tosogu? The nice thing about the NTHK kantei at the SF show was that the items were returned that same day. Does the NBTHK hold items for a week, or a month, or longer for evaluation? Basically, I'd like to know if it'll be possible for me or my relative to hand carry my tosogu there and back. I'm assuming if any items pass, the NBTHK has no qualms about mailing the yellow papers overseas (which takes several month) - or do papers also need to be picked up in person at the NBTHK offices? Thanks in advance!

I believe that's supposed to be the back side of a plum blossom. Given the quality of current reproductions and fakes coming out of China, these really need to be seen in hand. Some or all may turn out to be real, but all the them are on the low-end scale of quality...

Thanks so much for the update! Wow! Given how crazy auctions can get, not necessarily the best indicator of whether tsubas were of good quality. Glad you got to see them in hand and could attest to their quality. I had a hunch the pics were making them look worse... Did they sell to inhouse bidders or internet?

Nice tsuba! Is very similar to a choshu-han marked dragon tsuba I have. Possibly from the same area/school?

Perhaps, but if its faces alone, then the goto school would definitely fall a few many rungs down the quality scale IMHO... (BTW, very enjoyable website and nice collection of tosogu! )

Found some bigger pics: 216 (people in bamboo grove) appears to be a big name, so red flags for gimie, but the nanako looks pretty good to me. 215 the nakago offset might be alittle exaggerated due to the camera angle; I think the Noh masks were high enough above the surface and at differing heights, causing the tsuba not to be flat when the backside was being photo'd.... Any changed opinions? :D

Out of the lot, I think this one may go over its pre-auction estimate:

Thanks for the pics Peter! If I had not been so burned by Bonhams auctions and overseas shipping charges, I'd definitely go for 217. Justin - good eye's and call on the offsetting of the nakago on the noh mask tsuba. I guess I can understand if "export tsuba" is akin to the hamamono concept of low quality mass produced tsuba; I think 217 falls outside this, and perhaps 214 (I just realized the theme of the 214 tsuba is probably that of the night parade theme from my rinsendo kozuka!). I can't tell if 214 just looks like a hamamono piece because of a bad cleaning job that has left some oxidation "halo-ing" around the figure, or if the quality of the artwork is low. I think the photo is only just good enough to be bad...really can't make out the details to determine if its due to poor focusing or workmanship. I see enough details in some of the monsters to think that it might be nice work. Haven't researched the signature at all. Thoughts on 216: need higher resolution pics! I don't like the tiger, and some of the nanako appears off, but can't really tell. But the bamboo and figures look well done. So, withholding judgment on this one. I guess I still think they are all tsubas, even if never intended for mounting....

Wish they showed pics of the back. Out of the bunch, I like 217 the best. An interesting concept which I struggle to grasp, mostly in relation to value. I wonder how many Kano Natsuo pieces could be considered "tsuba" using the same criteria, and what impact it would have on the value and desirability of a Natsuo "tsuba-shaped" item. Since I've been mainly an edo or later period kinko focused collector, it is question I've thought about alot - collect based on functionality/historical significance & use or collect based on aesthetics. When the two meet, desirability (and prices) skyrocket, but in general, the higher value tsuba pieces seem to fall in the latter than the former. Its interesting that there isn't similar comments made on other tosogu pieces, like f/k, menuki, kojiri, even saya decoration. In battle, how would would, say, goto school soft metal menuki or saya parts stand up to usage and environmental conditions over prolonged periods of warfare, let alone their aesthetic details. If such items were never meant for such "actual" use (or perhaps never meant to be mounted in the first place, i.e. given as high level gifts), just like export tsuba, then does that make them any less real tosogu? On the flip side, perhaps it is because such items were never supposed to be used in real warfare, to be only worn by high level samurai or daimyo as symbols of wealth and prestige, that these items are desirable. In either case, with regard to kinko works, it does seem that market value and collector desirability does not seem to be effected in the least by functionality. Therefore, since only aesthetics remains, if this is the main driver of value/desirability, doesn't it follow that whether a tsuba was ever or could ever actually be mounted is an irrelevant concept? At the very least, when I ask such questions, I do see why many nihonto collectors stateside lean toward collections of iron tsubas; its a much easier connection to make with "real samurai" usage, while edo kinko and later are more akin to paintings and sculptures - less "warrior" and more "fu-fu" high brow fluff. I wonder if in Japan past, there was different perspective following teachings like "the brush and sword in one accord". If so, how much of that was reshaped or distorted during the meiji period and the need to convince the populace that the new order of Japan was better than the past...

I found this on the ashmolean site: Tsuji Rinsendō Mitsumasa (b. 1722, d. 1777) at first pursued the Yokoya style, but later that of the Nara, and was followed by half a dozen pupils. The technique known as sumi-zōgan, whereby an ink (sumi) drawing is imitated by an inlay (zōgan) of shakudō on silver or shibuichi, is characteristic of Rinsendō work. (The shingen tsuba info is pretty thin, so if the same can be said about their rinsendo info, then 影絵 Kagee technique per John is probably the way to go...)

Hi Mark, Glad you enjoy the piece too! Unfortunately, nothing on the back...just plain shibuishi, not even a design. The aoi cut out is the only other detail of possible significance, being outlined in metal and fairly well shaped, IMO. No signature anywhere, and trust me, I checked all the sides too. I went after it merely on the strength of the design. So, it may not even be by a rinsendo smith (at least, no absolute way of knowing... ). I was hoping someone might know what the kantei points are for the rinsendo school, but has been all quite on that front so far.... Re-reading John's post, maybe rimpa school is back on the list of "in the style of" for this kozuka?

Thanks John. I've always admired the umetada kinko inlay, and didn't make the connection. I do have that book, still haven't made the time to go through it page by page though. Thanks for the info and heads up!

there was a booth at the august show, all the way in the back, run by wife + husband. They sold supplies, including tanto sageo... sorry, didn't catch they're names, but I saw the same booth a few years back, so someone must know these regulars...

oh boy, just came across this bakemono: (scroll down to monster #7): http://pinktentacle.com/2010/04/kaikida ... er-scroll/ he carries a stick too like the #2 figure....