Dan tsuba

Well, here we go again! All I showed was how and what I did to clean some rust off a blade, as stated in my post I would not even consider polishing it myself. Then Sam stated-"Dan, what you're saying and showing is irresponsible and harmful to the hobby". Well then, everyone on the Tosogu side of the forum that tells and advises people how to clean the rust of their tsuba are also irresponsible and harmful to the hobby. Where does this double standard come from?

Referring to Colin's post above. You stated- “I don’t think you are really listening…..read this thread….and then you might, just might understand.” No Colin. You are the one who is not listening or reading my previous threads. I stated blades purchased from eBay. Then you show me a blade purchased at a court auction. We are not talking about blades purchased from court auctions, garage sales, or handed down to the next generation. I am talking about a $100 dollar blade purchased from eBay, can that ever be a prized blade or a national treasure! Let me show you. 5 years ago, I purchased a very rusty wakizashi blade from eBay (I don’t even think that you can get a rusty blade from eBay at that price anymore!). I took the active rust off the blade using oil, very fine sandpaper, and very fine steel wool (I know how to do that because of all the rusty kukri I have cleaned). I never took any stones to the blade to try and polish it. I don’t have them and wouldn’t know how to use them let alone even attempt something like that! I feel that by cleaning the active rust off the blade that I (in a sense) preserved the blade. Because if the active rust would have remained on that blade for a few more years, maybe there would be no more blade left to clean! Should I have spent a couple of thousand dollars to have a professional polisher polish the blade? Heck no! I gifted the blade to a martial arts friend of mine. Years later, he gifted the blade to his Sensei. So, a lot of enjoyment came from this blade. Did I possibly ruin a 5- or 10-thousand-dollar blade? I don’t think so! Before and after pictures of the project are shown below.

Yes boss, you are clear enough! I hope you are feeling better and healing. But Joe was only talking about a $100 dollar rusty blade on eBay. And I don't think something like that could be a possible National treasure. But, once again, I could be wrong.

Come on guys! I think you may have chased a new member off the forum (once again!). As Franco stated in his last post- “Arrogance is some guy named "Joe" buying a hundred dollar rusty blade on ebay, who doesn't have a clue that the rusty $100 blade he just purchased may actually be a $5,000 blade, or a $50,000 blade, or perhaps even a $100,000 blade, because it's all the same to him after all….” So, when has that ever happened on eBay? What are you telling Joe? That if he buys a $100-dollar rusty blade on eBay that he should send it to a professional polisher? Then maybe spend a couple of thousand dollars (?) to have it polished to find out if it is a treasure or not? Who has ever done something like that? Doesn’t make a lot of sense. My opinion.

Good information from Jean, thanks Jean! But I would like to address the question that one of our new members asked on this thread that hasn’t been answered yet. I include the post from joe2 (Joe) below- “So does the fact that a tsuba is cast iron help with dating it? I have a definitely cast iron tsuba which shows air bubbles and the seam from a sand casting process. I used Evapo Rust on it (it was bad) and it sure looks like the cast Iron sand casting projects we made in high school a long time ago.” So, to answer your question Joe, the fact that a tsuba is cast iron does not help in dating it. There are those that believe that cast iron tsuba were only produced after the Edo period (the Edo period ended in 1868). Then there are those few that believe that cast iron tsuba could have also been produced during the Edo period (1603 to 1868). But again, just because a tsuba is cast iron does not necessarily help in dating it. If you want to find out more information about the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period, you can always read the 18 pages of this thread. But I wouldn’t wish that on anyone! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc (I just crack myself up)!

Thanks Thomas, for some good information! But let us say this tsuba was coated in urushi (which I have my doubts about) and then the motifs applied onto it. Have you ever seen a tsuba like this before? If so, could you please provide pictures?

Some great information here about the study and preservation of art. But let us not forget that Joe (and welcome to the forum Joe – it is a great forum!) in his first post on this forum specifically stated- “If I want to buy a $100 rusty blade on eBay and try to reshape and polish it, it is my business.” He didn’t state that he is buying a $10,000 work of art and is going to try polishing it himself! Heck even I (a couple of years ago) bought about a $100 rusty blade from eBay and took off the rust (I didn’t try polishing it, just took off the active rust). It was an interesting little project, and the blade turned out a lot better than when I received it. If I hadn’t purchased the blade and worked on it, maybe by this time the blade would be beyond saving because of all the rust deterioration (so I feel that in my own way I did kind of preserve the blade). I think (my opinion) we should give the new member a break and give him some time to learn.

Thanks Thomas, for your opinion about the outer shell of the tsuba being urushi lacquer. But in a previous post here I stated how I used a small sharp knife to try to cut a tiny piece of the covering off the tsuba. I couldn’t do it, and the blade did not even leave a scratch on the surface. Then I tried placing the tip of the blade under a small piece of the covering that was already chipped to see if I could remove a tiny piece for magnetic testing. Well, I couldn’t do that either! And if the covering was urushi, how could the craftsman mold in those pine needle motifs or place in the brass zogan? But let us say you are correct and the outside covering of the tsuba is urushi. Wouldn't that still be an alternative way to construct a tsuba (as the title of this thread suggests)?

Alrighty then! Here are the last pictures of the tsuba. They show the ura side. So, if you refer to my posts on this thread you will learn what I have done to this tsuba and see all the pictures I have taken. You will learn the size of the tsuba, the thickness and the weight. You will also be able to figuratively hold it in your hand and notice all the questionable areas that I have referred to. So, what do you think? Could this have been an alternative way to construct a tsuba? All opinions and thoughts are welcome! Onward!

Hey Derek! So, you stated that- “Most of these motifs attached to tsuba are made of softer metals. They are carved separately first and then soldered onto the tsuba using various techniques. The filling is most likely lead. Lead turns red under certain amounts of heat, or one side may have just been painted with urushi. Someone may have experimented with this piece recently, as it’s a very low-end tsuba, which makes it perfect for experimentation.” Thanks for the information. Lead tetroxide can be reddish or orange (pictures attached below). But the ategane in my tsuba looks nothing like that! Included below are pictures of my tsuba that have lead ategane. They look nothing like the last 2 pictures below of the ategane in my low end tsuba that I have discussed here on this thread (the last 2 pictures attached below). Just some more interesting stuff! And more pictures of my low end tsuba coming up! Onward!

Thanks Derek for your opinions, they are always appreciated! You stated- “Dan, I don’t think there’s anything unusual about this tsuba; you might be overthinking it a bit. And, of course, the motif wasn’t hand-carved on the tsuba.” So, let’s talk about what you said about this tsuba not being unusual. I don’t know. I have ategane in some of my tsuba that appear to be lead. I have some tsuba with ategane that appear to be copper with a shakudo (black) patina. But I have never seen an ategane like this tsuba has. It is a red color on the omote side. I can assume that it has some sort of patina on it. But it is a silver color on the ura side with no patina (pictures shown below-again!). Although it is silver in color, it is not silver because it hasn’t tarnished like silver does. So, my thoughts are it is either tin or nickel (which tarnish slower than silver) or a combination of both metals (and yes, in Edo period Japan there were deposits of tin and nickel-but not much). Who was the craftsman that made the ategane for this tsuba (and maybe the tsuba itself)? Was he a Merlin type alchemist in the Edo period of Japan? Also, you stated “And, of course, the motif wasn’t hand-carved on the tsuba.” Well, if the motif wasn’t hand carved on the tsuba then how was it done (and I am referring to the pine needle motif and not the guy looking backwards on the horse). I mean you couldn't be saying that a tsuba (more than likely made in the Edo period) had motif on it that was molded with the tsuba (or are you saying that?). Remembering that in a previous post here I stated about my tsuba that- “It has sekigane at the top and bottom of the nakago-ana. It also shows wear marks from a seppa on the omote side of the tsuba. So, I am thinking that this tsuba has probably been mounted on a blade more than once. It also has ategane in the kozuka hitsu-ana. My feeling is that adding ategane to a tsuba is kind of a customization to the piece done at a later time or by another owner.” Anyway, just some more interesting stuff about this enigmatic tsuba! And more pictures and thoughts about the tsuba to be posted later! Onward!

So, as stated in my post above, here are more pictures of my enigmatic tsuba! The first picture shown is a picture taken with my digital camera of the area I wanted to concentrate on. The second picture shown is that same (or approximate) area with a picture taken with my digital microscope. I had to take a picture with my digital camera of the picture I took with the microscope, otherwise the microscope image is too large to download. Anyway, I think the pictures came out O.K.! Each set of pictures follows that pattern (except for the last series of pictures which shows 2 pictures taken with the digital camera and then 1 picture taken with the microscope). The first picture in this series shows the tsuba flat, but to get a close-up of that area with the microscope I could not take it at the same angle. My thoughts are that there is definitely an outer shell of metal on the tsuba. I don’t know what type of metal it is, but I do know that cast iron is brittle and will chip, crack and break when struck. I also think that the pine needle motif was not hand carved on the tsuba but maybe molded on to the tsuba when the hard metal shell was poured (?) over the metal core. Also, I think the man facing backwards on his horse motif was not hand carved into the tsuba. My thoughts are that the figure was pre-made and then attached to the tsuba when the metal covering was still hot. Or it was attached another way to the tsuba? The attached pictures are of the omote side of the tsuba (except that small chip shown in the 5th and 6th pictures which is on the mimi of the ura side of the tsuba). There are still more pictures to be taken of the ura side and of other parts of the mimi, with my added thoughts about the piece. Anyway, just giving it my best guess here! This is one heck of a strange tsuba! Onward!

So, to answer the two posts above- Thanks Sam, microscope pictures later today! I did take a sharp small knife and try to chip off a tiny part of the outer covering of the tsuba by the nakago-ana (ura side of tsuba). It didn't work. I could not cut or even place my blade under a piece that was chipped to further chip it and remove even a tiny piece for testing. So the outer covering on the tsuba may appear that it is easy to remove or is easy to break off, but it isn't! I also placed a magnet onto the outside shell covering the tsuba. The magnet sticks to the metal shell. So the shell covering the tsuba is probably some type of metal. So I was thinking that what if the outside shell was not made from metal, and the magnet is not sticking to the outside shell but is actually sticking to the inside metal core of the tsuba? Well, I don't see what the outside shell would be made of other than metal. It is not paint, and it is not lacquer so my guess is the outside shell of the tsuba is metal. And to Stephen- Yes, I tend to agree with you that the outer covering of the tsuba is hard and brittle. And it is definetly some kind of covering or shell on the tsuba. So far, I tend to think it was formed under #2 of your above post that talks about Oxidation Layers. I could be wrong, but it is a fun thing to try and figure out! Onward!

Stephen, I have a question. When you state "you will need to prove that this was done purposefully (which I personally do not believe) as opposed to "accidently" caught in fire incidents (which I do believe is the case)" what are you specifically referring to? Is it the softer metal covering the harder metal core of the tsuba that was accidently put on the tsuba by being in a fire? Or is it the chipping off of the softer metal covering the tsuba because it may have been in a fire? Whatever the case, I believe that a softer metal shell was purposefully put on a harder metal core and motifs were added to the softer metal or placed or glued onto the softer metal shell (specifically the horse and backwards facing rider). Onward!

Wow! Stephen’s brilliant post with his great research adds a whole new line of inquiry into how some tsuba could have been made! I find this extremely exciting! Tomorrow, I will add some more pictures taken with my digital camera and digital microscope to this thread of my tsuba with the hard metal core and the soft metal covering. You will see what Stephen is referring to in his post and how this technique was accomplished on a tsuba. Like I stated somewhere on these threads before, some tsuba craftsmen were almost alchemists in how they could mix and re-heat metals! I think this is entirely new line of research (and has not been brought up before) and is an alternative way to construct a tsuba! Onward the adventure continues!

Happy New Year Stephen! Wow, you are the man! That is great information you posted! And it could very well explain the outer shell on my tsuba! I will have to study your post more carefully. I am amazed! Thank you, With respect, Dan

Very funny Mauro! But tell that to Cornell University! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Hello all! Happy New Year! Well, I finally received the tsuba from Japan that started this thread. In hand it is very interesting, strange, and weird (the only way to describe it!). So, let me start with the basics. It is 68mm by 62mm and 4mm thick (measurments done with a caliper rounding down to the nearest whole number). It weighs 93 grams. It has sekigane at the top and bottom of the nakago-ana. It also shows wear marks from a seppa on the omote side of the tsuba. So, I am thinking that this tsuba has probably been mounted on a blade more than once. It also has ategane in the kozuka hitsu-ana. My feeling is that adding ategane to a tsuba is kind of a customization to the piece done at a later time or by another owner. What is strange about this ategane on this tsuba is that it appears to be a reddish color on the omote side and a silver color on the ura side! The center core of the tsuba appears to be hand forged. As a side note on the 3rd picture showing the inside of the nakago-ana, the dark area towards the inside of the nakago-ana is a shadow (it is not the outside covering of the tsuba). Also, on the ura side of the tsuba at about the 11 o’clock position on the mimi there appears to be a piece of the outside covering of the tsuba that has chipped off (it does not appear that this occurred because of rust, it just looks like the softer metal covering of the tsuba was chipped). Pictures of everything I described are shown below. So far, I have just taken pictures with my digital camera. On my next post about this tsuba I will try to take more pictures with my camera and my digital microscope. The tsuba still appears to me that it has a hard metal core and a softer metal covering. Any thoughts and opinions on this piece presented so far would be appreciated! Onward!

So, about that reclining ox tsuba. I have included information (from a link) and pictures from two museums and a dealer that were shown on current previous threads (the last picture -from Jauce-which shows that particular reclining ox tsuba is broken and appears to be made from cast iron). What is of interest is that the nakago-ana on all of these tsuba show a distinctive bottle type shape which (I have found) is often found on cast iron tsuba. I am not saying that the information included with the tsuba by the museums, or the dealer, is correct. But the information on that tsuba (information below and the first picture shown) from Cornell University is interesting! Onward! Cornell University Museum- Openwork tsuba with scene of Roshi (Laozi) and reclining ox Date Edo period, 18th century Medium- Iron Dimensions2 3/4 × 2 5/8 inches (7 × 6.7 cm) Culture Japan Classifications Armor Credit Line Memorial gift from the Estate of Charles W. Hay, Class of 1925

Firstly, if you do not want to see possible cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period then just move on. Secondly, this is not my research. https://emuseum.corn...quadrifoil-ken-tsuba https://emuseum.corn...ozi-and-reclining-ox

So Okan, here is the link that Steven was referring to on the San Diego Tsuba. Scroll down somewhat and you will find it. https://tsubakansho.com/tag/cast/ In the upper right-hand corner of the picture shown under San Diego Tsuba, you will see a 16 petal chrysanthemum tsuba. Then in the other pictures, you will be able to discern pieces of molds that appear to have a kiku (chrysanthemum) motif. Don't get me started if those molds were used for soft metal or cast iron! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc (I crack myself up!). Onward!

Somewhat off topic here. But just as a side note for those that are interested. A lot of information about those two holes on a tsuba (udenuki-no-ana) can be found here- https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14733-udenuki-no-ana-two-holes-near-edge-of-tsuba/

Yeah, I have one of those folded edges tsuba also! Pictures shown below. As always, I didn't pay over $150.00 U.S. for it. But Dee's tsuba is excellent (my opinion). It is beautiful, and I have not seen a tsuba like that before. It just exudes strength, beauty, and function. Onward!

Hey Dee! It is cast! NO, not really! Just having a bit of fun here! It is a beautiful hand forged tsuba (yes, even I can see that!) I bet you can’t wait to get it in hand. It may even have some tekkotsu? Congratulations and well done! P.S.- could that be real gold ategane? Simply beautiful!

Well, off topic here. But it was stated in a previous post that- "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Well below is my Christmas gift to myself, a digital microscope! It takes great pictures! Maybe it will help me to see! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!