
Dan tsuba
Gold Tier-
Posts
761 -
Joined
Everything posted by Dan tsuba
-
Hello SG and welcome to the forum !! I don't know enough about tsuba to help you out. I am certain that others will tell you exactly what you want to know about the tsuba. The only thing I can tell you is that I really like it and great pictures!!! With respect, Dan
-
I know in my quest to find information on Edo period cast iron tsuba that I can present the reader with many pictures and examples of tsuba that are listed as Edo, are listed by reputable dealers, and appear to be made from cast iron. However, presently that is not my research goal. I am now endeavoring to find legitimate records or historical notes that give some insights into the possibility of Edo period cast tsuba. This is not an “easy” thing to do, but I have tried. So far, I have gleaned some insights. A couple of months ago a friend gave me a book entitled “Transactions and Proceedings of the Japan Society, London (which is stated on the cover). Inside the book is stated as “Transactions and Proceedings of The Japan Society, London, Volume III The Third and Fourth Sessions 1893-5”. Then it states publishing information which is: London, 1897. Published for the Society by Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner and Co., Limited Paternoster House, Charing Cross Road, W.C.. He stated he bought this reprint of the original on the internet. He also said that there are several sites that sell it. I found that it is also available for the public domain in PDF format, but I couldn’t get those exact pages I listed below to download. I find that it is a valuable resource for many different subjects about Japan. One subject they touch upon is that of tsuba. So, on page 83 (starting from the front of the book, because if you start from the back of the book you will end up on the wrong page because this book contains a couple of individually paged and numbered volumes) in the bottom paragraph it states “The tsuba………are of greatest interest to the metallurgist.” Also, it goes on to state “………...skilfully dealt with by Professor Church in the introduction to the catalogue of the late exhibition at the Burlington Club”. So, let’s hold onto that thought about “Professor Church”. Now on the bottom of P.91 and going to the top of P.92 it states “The Hamano school was founded by Hamano Shozui, a pupil of Ju Toshinaga, and who died in 1769. ………. He worked both in iron and bronze, and as in the case of Toshinaga, there is sometimes a strange contrast between his work in the two metals, one of his iron tsubas in my collection having a very singular surface, like a fragment of cast iron (Plate X. I), while his bronze is often highly finished.” So, I have included that picture stated in the above text on the bottom of this posting. The picture that is referred to is the first tsuba on the bottom of the picture. Now, let’s move on to Professor Church. His name was Arthur Herbert Church (1834-1915) and he was evidently a very knowledgeable collector of tsuba. Refer to the website below to see his collection –(scroll through the areas located on the left side of the site to view the different schools represented in his collection). http://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/7/10237/10338 Now when I went to the above website and put in a search for cast iron tsuba I got this. - http://jameelcentre.ashmolean.org/collection/8/object/21614 The results of that search are shown below : ? Aori-shaped tsuba with tea ceremony cauldron and poem Associated place Japan (place of creation) Date 19th century (1801 - 1900) Material and technique obverse and reverse: iron, with gold; tang-hole plugged with soft metal, probably copper, and partly gilded obverse: with cast iron and shibuichi; central silver ground, with punched ishime decoration Dimensions 6.5 x 5.6 cm (height x width) Material index iron, gold, shibuichi, shibuichi, silver, more Technique index forged, cast, punched, punched, plugged, more Object type index tsuba No. of items 1 Credit line Bequeathed by Sir Arthur H. Church, 1915. Accession no. EAX.11077 Well, that’s it for what I could come up with for Edo cast iron tsuba that seems to be from credible sources. This has been fun and extremely educational. But I am know going to “let it go” and maybe there is someone out there willing to “take up the torch”! With respect, Dan
-
So, in doing research for my post on “Tsuba casting molds” I came across some interesting information regarding the two holes in the tsuba. I found this information in the “Transactions and Proceedings of The Japan Society, London, Volume III, the third and fourh sessions, 1893-5.” On page 95 at the top, it states: “In some tsubas we find two circular holes, often lined with gold or some other metal. These are called “kinuki” tsubas, the holes being for the passage of a cord, tying the tsuba to the scabbard. They were used it is said by old men whose age and military service exempted them from having to draw the sword, either for public or private purposes. I have tsubas on which is a small stud pierced with a fine hole, as if to pass a wire through it, the use of which I cannot learn” Thought that this is another interesting view of why the holes were there. With respect, Dan
-
So, thanks all again for posting some great information and resources. I am sure learning a lot, and it took me some time to get through the last reference. The last reference mentioned was the one that dealt with how different tsuba metals were inlaid, crafted, and had patina applied (starting at page 291)— That website is shown below : https://archive.org/details/arsorientalisar111979univ/page/n1/mode/2up?q=tsuba It is a very well researched and a great “read”. I even found out on pages 315 and p. 325 that I have tusba (although they are “low end” types) that have the same design and inlay work as described in the text, so that was a neat thing! Now, they seem to have only chosen 5 tsuba for their purposes (and it is explained on page 292 how and why they chose them). Although there is mention throughout the text of “malleable metal” and “wrought iron” (a plus for those who believe Edo period tsuba were not made from cast iron!); but as explained on page 293 and p.299 only 2 out of the 5 tsuba were made from iron (and they were not cast!). Although I don’t think that 2 tsuba is a fair enough representation of iron tsuba to discern if Edo period tsuba were ever made from cast iron. Even though the reference referred to above is an insightful paper about tsuba inlay work (and other areas), I don’t believe it can be used as a basis to verify if tsuba were not ever made from cast iron. I know, I know!! Most of you are saying “what will it take to convince this guy that Edo period original tsuba (not fakes) were not made from cast iron?” Do we have to find an Edo period tsuba craftsman, bring him back to life and have him tell Dan that “there is no way Edo period original tsuba were made from cast iron!” Maybe! Ha, ha, ha, etc., just trying to add a bit of fun to an otherwise very educational, intense, and complicated subject! I am still searching the internet for any possible clues or written records by Edo period tsuba craftsman, or anything that can be added to this thread to prove or disprove the making of cast iron tsuba. With respect, Dan With respect, Dan
-
Looking at all the great postings to this thread (and specifically after the initial “cast iron” post) I have noticed that there are two schools of thought. One is that Edo period tsuba could not have been made from cast iron. The other school of thought is that Edo period tsuba were (or could have been) made from cast iron. It looks like this discussion could go on for a long time, and in reviewing some previous posts on this forum (going back several years) on varying subjects, it seems that it has been a point of interest in the past. So, on the internet Wikipedia under “Japanese Swordsmithing” it states that “In 1993, Jerzy Piaskowski performed an analysis of a katana of the kobuse type by cutting the sword in half and taking a cross section.” I have also found where Jerzy Piaskowski has written books on different kinds of sword blades and the steels used. I am fairly certain that there have been others that have cut Japanese swords for further study. So, could it be possible (in a scientific approach to the subject) for a knowledgeable metallurgist to cut tsuba that are known to be from the Edo era (which in itself seems to be a difficult thing to discern) and possibly suspected of being cast iron and study them? I don’t know, maybe something like this has already been done, but I couldn’t find anything about it on the internet. Anyway, it would make for an interesting study and would “shed some light” on an otherwise seemingly difficult subject. With respect, Dan
-
Hello all (again!). So, about 3 years later from my initial post I finally found the same item on the internet (shown below). It is badly corroded and was listed as being from 1900 -1940. During that 3-year intervening period I found where this item could be a “diplomatic presentation medallion” that was given as a token from Chinese diplomats to Japanese diplomats. That makes sense. Although it could also be a junk tourist piece. But due to the fact that I have seen only one other, maybe not. And way back in 2019 SteveM translated the saying on the back (shown in my initial posting) of the (possible) medallion (thanks again Steve!). I find that saying very unique! Just thought I would add this information incase anybody else encountered this piece or someone that has questions about it. With respect, Dan Location:California Name: SteveM Posted March 10, 2019 Interesting. Not quite what I expected. You got the kanji right. 鬼手仏心 Demon Hand, Buddha Heart It refers to an act of kindness or mercy that requires decisive, steady action. https://kotobank.jp/word/%E9%AC%BC%E6%89%8B%E4%BB%8F%E5%BF%83-473697
-
So, it looks like some cast tsuba have been papered by the NBTHK (according to Thomas and Glen – thanks for that information!). I have very little knowledge of these papers (only what I have learned on the internet – but it is still complicated with al the different “kinds” of rankings and even the “bad” green papers). Anyway, I was wondering if when the NBTHK issues papers on tsuba do they list the metal used? And if so, do they keep records of the certifications? I don’t know, maybe they have already issued papers on cast iron tsuba (as Glen has shown a picture in this thread of a papered tsuba that he is "pretty sure" is cast iron - thanks again Glen). That would be interesting to check into, but I wouldn’t know how to go about finding this information out or if it even can be done. I mean if the NBTHK ever had or does or will paper a cast iron tsuba, that would be very relevant to this discussion. With respect, Dan
-
Glen, thanks for all the pictures and great information !! I found a site with listings from a very reputable antique dealer in Japan that has sold several thousand antiques. I have included the link to the site. Now this is said to be from the "Edo" period (everything except the menuki). To my very untrained eye the tsuba appears to be cast. I don't know, I may be wrong !! https://www.ebay.com/itm/353863150744?mkpid=0&emsid=e11010.m1951.l7534&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=575c0926f9994ae0b12e05d3e54f376e&bu=44221577479&ut=RU&osub=-1~1&crd=20220125113405&segname=11010&sojTags= With respect, Dan
-
So all, I found a wikipedia site that deals with ferrous metallurgy development in China. It talks about ancient cast iron weapons being found and the development of cast iron in China. I also found were China and Japan have had continuous contact since about 100 A.D. Maybe the Japanese craftsman learned their cast metal technology from the Chinese ?? Anyway the website is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrous_metallurgy If you scroll down to "China" it tells about it and has some illustrations. I found it very interesting. With respect, Dan
-
Again, thanks to all for the great information. I really learned a lot from the websites that Spartancrest and GRC included and the video link from COD, Way too cool and thanks !! I checked on the web and found that annealing was in practice about 900 years ago! So it seems like a distint possibility that iron tsuba could have been cast and the iron could be made less brittle. Thanks all ! With respect, Dan
-
Wow !! Thanks all. My initial post about the "San Diego Tsuba" and the replies to it started quite an educational journey for me! As a result of some "light" research I have found that cast iron tsuba are brittle and can break when struck and because of that they do not work as intended (as stated by Rokujuro in he above post - thank you Rokujuro for the insight). However, could it be that iron tsuba during the (let us say) middle Edo period (maybe about 1700) did not have to endure "hard blows" ?? I have read where the Edo period was a "peaceful" (more or less) era in Japanese history. So could it be that if tsuba were cast from iron, that they were more or less for decorative purposes only ??? Again, thanks all ! With respect, Dan
-
Hello all, I just happened to "drift" into this website. https://tsubakansho.com/tag/cast/ . It talks about copper tsuba that could have been cast before 1600 (scroll down under the heading on the left under "San Diego Tsuba"). I have no idea if this could be an actual occurrence. Thoughts or opinions on the article would be welcome. With respect, Dan
-
Hello all !! I am a collector of "low end" and not expensive tsuba. It is a great hobby and it is a vast learning expierence. I have been collecting for about 4 years now. Today I received a tsuba with the first ever set of NBTHK papers that I have !! Hoorah !! I would appreciate some assistance. Are these papers the "real deal" or are they fake ? I got on an internet website and as far as I can tell the papers look authentic. The site also tells me what is mentioned in each column of the paper. Although trying to figure out what it states is too challenging for this old guy !! I have included pictures below of the papers and the envelope it came in. Can you assist with translation ?? Thank you very much, With respect, Dan
-
Oh my gosh Steve !! Thank you so much for your diligent assistance. I have included a photo of the daisho set so you can see the curvature of the blade. The katana has the kanji on the tang. The wakazashi has nothing on the tang and I think the blade is a replacement to the original set. The set is not in great condition, but I think it is so cool to have these pieces on display. I just get a thrill when I look at them !! Again, thanks for the assist ! With respect, Dan
-
Hello all !! So, I took another picture of the date on the tang using a side light (like Grey said). It looks like it may be better to see the Kanji. So far from my other posts Uwe has gotten this -- “ロロロロ八月日” (ロロロロ hachi gatsu hi) Then Bruce got this- 正平 which translates to 1346正平Shōhei All this is more than I could figure out, so thanks for the assist !! Any other assistance would be greatly appreciated. With respect, Dan
-
Signature and date on tang (continued)
Dan tsuba replied to Dan tsuba's topic in Translation Assistance
Thanks Bruce for clearing up the pic. I looked up the Kanji that you found on the tang. It states - 1346 正平 Shōhei Now, as much as I would like the blade to be that old - I think that would just be "wishful thinking" !! I will try again to take a pic of the tang using a light coming in from the side (like Grey stated). One more try ! If I can't get a good enough pic for a translation, no problem, I will just enjoy the piece ! With respect, Dan -
So, thank you all for replying to my post. I have taken another picture of what I think is the date on the tang (as suggested by Grey). And then Uwe summed it up with the following information : ”兼廣” (Kanehiro) “ロロロロ八月日” (ロロロロ hachi gatsu hi) I have attached another pic of what I think is the date. Maybe this would help ? If not, thanks for taking a look and for your help. With respect, Dan
-
-
Hello all, I recently inherited a daito. I finally felt confident enough to take it apart. I noticed some marks on both sides of the tang. Can someone tell me if that is the name of the maker on one side and a date on the other ? And if so, what does it say ?? I tried to take the best pics that I could. I think I will have to do it in 2 messages, since I can only upload one pic to this message. Thank you all, With respect, Dan
-
Hello again all, I am still not sure if the crossed hawk feathers on my tsuba (pics attached again) are the mon ot the Asano clan. A response to a previous post on the tranlsation forum states that it could be the Abe clan. And a previous response to that states the Asano Clan. Anyway, I purchased this tsuba because that mon was displayed in my friends most recently written novel. He writes historically accurate novels (this is his 6th novel). His latest novel takes place in Japan (loosely based on when he was there as a young man) and it crosses over from modern to samurai times, then back to modern times and vice versa. After reading his novel, it felt like I had actually visited Japan! Anyway, he displayed this mon in his novel. So when I saw this tsuba for sale, I had to purchase it (if I hadn't read his novel - I would have never been interested in this tsuba - so lucky for that !!). Of course, I am hopiing that my tsuba is an authentic tsuba that was associated with the Asano clan (the clan of the famous 47 ronin incident). Any further thoughts on its kamon design, age, and authenticity would be greatly appreciated. In the meantime, I clean it lightly everyday with a genuine horsehair brush (as suggested by Curran) to give it some TLC ! I hope that it will slowly get in a better condition over time !! With respect, Dan
-
Hey James, I like all the fittings. I think they are as good a match as you can get. I also think the finished project will look great ! Dan
- 19 replies
-
Hello again James, Sounds like it is going to be a great looking sword when it is complete !! I don't know, maybe I would just leave the tsuba as it is. It looks good. Although, if you do remove the lacquer can you tell me how you did it. I have tried using paint remover on one of mine, and it did nothing. So without sanding and ruining the tsuba completly, I just left the "patina" on it. With respect, Dan
- 19 replies
-
Hello Jimbo, I am fairly new to tsuba collecting. I have made some "errors" in some of my tsuba purchases. No big deal. For me, your initial post says it all - "the tsuba that felt just right. I ended up going with this one, and I am very happy with the purchase." And, " I just really like how it looks.......makes me feel good." Well stated, and that's what making a purchase is all about (in my opinion). I also like the tsuba. The tiger walking (or jumping) through the bamboo. Real, fake, repro, or copy - it definetly has its appeal !" Also, as far as my very limited tsuba expierence goes, I am pretty sure that copper does not rust. Although I think that copper will tarnish over time to a "green" type color (if not taken care of). With respect, Dan
- 19 replies
-
Hello all, I think the mon on this tsuba could be that of the "Asano clan". However, I am not certain. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. With respect, Dan
-
I messed up again. I re-posted the reply from Spartancrest ! How did that happen ! Anyway Spartancrest and Curran, thank you so much for your replies. To Spartancrest, so the mon may actualy be that of the 47 ronin story. And you visited the graves. That is cool !! And to Curran, thanks for the instructions on how to improve the tsuba appearance. I guess that means that this tsuba could be the "real thing" ! Much appreciated, and with respect, Dan