Dan tsuba

Thanks Colin H for being so kind and refraining from belittleing, berating, and ridiculing me. Well, I evidently see different things in the original post then you. In his original post Colin T initially stated- "A recent auction purchase that I took a chance on as it was described in the catalogue as 'A modern reproduction of a late 19thC Japanese cast metal tsuba'. I had studied the auctioneers pictures and I was pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy as I could see nunome-zogan, the sekigane around the seppa dai and hitsu ana looked like good copper inserts, the figures on the bridge looked typical of ones I have seen on other tsuba and it appeared to come with an old higher spec custom box. I'm no expert here and I may be totally wrong but now I have it in hand it looks authentic?" I was just tryiing to help him out to possibly determine and assist him with his "pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy" and "it looks authentic?". I think that testing the tsuba would help determine if the iron content is an old or new mixture. Anyway, thanks for your kindness. Now let the belittleing, beratting, and ridiculing continue (as I am sure it will !).

Hello Colin, I noticed you may have had a question about your tsuba and its iron makeup in your initial post. Although many members have stated their opinions. If you still have a question about it maybe you can send it to OceanoNox? He advised me on another thread that he would be willing to do an analysis to determine the iron makeup of a tsuba. I quote part of that post below (with some non-relevant areas of the post eliminated and indicated by “….” marks)- “…. Or send them to me to do it. I have access to X-ray, electronic microscope with chemical analysis, and micro-hardness (not quite non-invasive, but still considered relatively non-destructive, if you can bear a barely visible indent) ….”. “I am doing it. I had an idea about tsuba research, and my students and I are doing the calculations and experiments to see it through. It's not cutting edge, it's probably not very noteworthy, but we are doing what's necessary to find out if we are right or not.” Maybe he and his students can help you to make a final determination about your tsuba? I mean it may be worth a try? Just my opinion.

No need to power up the cattle prod! I started this thread, let me end it. Then Brian can lock this thread. So, what the nonbelievers of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period are saying is that there were no cast iron tsuba made until after the end of the Edo period (1868). They are saying that no cast iron tsuba were made during the Edo period. That means that all the craftsmen of tsuba got together and decided to wait until the end of the Edo period before making a cast iron tsuba and then they all said “yeah, let’s go ahead and make cast iron tsuba now”! Come on. Do you really believe that? The more plausible explanation being that at least 40 years (just guessing here - and my guess is derived from other posts and references stated in this thread) before the end of the Edo period cast iron tsuba were being made. Those cast iron tsuba could have been mounted on swords (as many old cast iron tsuba shown in this thread have sekigane in the nakago-ana or are shown mounted on swords) or they could have been made for the tourist trade. The point being that cast iron tsuba were being made in the Edo period. Now the administrator can lock this thread.

Hello Luca! I am back again because I couldn't let your post go unanswered. Well, since you stated that you have read all of my thread from the beginning then you know all of the belittling, berating, and ridiculing that I have endured. Then you go right on and continue the ridiculing (and let us not forget the word delusions that you used in your post)! You stated something like I have shoved my views down the throats of people and that I am forcing people to accept my views. All I have ever tried to do on this thread is present my thoughts (usually backed up with references or resources or pictures or weblinks) that support what is my belief in the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. As far as you saying that I have shoved my views down the throats of people and forced them to accept my views, you are mistaken. No one has to accept anything, and if they feel I am forcing my views down their throats (as you stated) they can either spit or swallow. Their choice.

Hello again (and after this short post it will be goodbye again!). I think that most members only read the last couple of pages or the last couple of posts on this thread. If a member has the time and inclination to read this entire thread, I think they will learn much valuable information and insights. Not only about the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period, but also about how this forum operates. Onward!

OcenaoNox, Once again, your opinions are not corroborated with references, pictures, or web links (just like so many others’ opinions on this thread). When even the Administrator of this forum does not appear to have the scholastic background to state his negative belittling, berating, and ridiculing in a more articulate manner and in a positive way which would be more productive (by including references or pictures) then I figure this thread has reached its end. Then there are what I believe to be dealers that support the Administrator. and anyone that states anything positive about cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period will be ridiculed. Just my opinion based on my past experience with this thread. I am out of here, since there seems to be nothing positive that is occurring and the closed minds, limited thinkers, and those that consider themselves gate keepers of the status quo thinking of how tsuba were made in the Edo period won’t let any new ideas take hold or continue on the forum, even though an abundance of evidence has been shown (with stated references, pictures, and web links) by some contributors to this thread of the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. For some reason there seems to be many individuals that feel threatened by new ideas. Perhaps those individuals don’t want to subject every tsuba they sell to the expense of non-invasive metallurgical testing to guarantee to the buyer that the tsuba they are selling is hand forged and not cast iron? My goal was always to present possible alternative ways that tsuba could have been made in the Edo period, specifically (sand cast or clay cast) cast iron tsuba. My goal was never to purposely upset people or cause conflict. Why several people are so defensive against the possibility that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period is anybody’s guess. Goodbye, for now.

Hi OceanoNox, Well, as can be seen in the pictures on one of my previous posts that area of the water wheel is not completely flat. Why would a hand forged tsuba not be flat in that area as all the other hand forged tsuba with that motif shown in a previous post are flat? That was another indicator to me that the tsuba could be of cast iron. Anyway, still trying to recover from our Administrator's previous post belittling me. I am not as fast to recover from those insults as I used to be! It is easy for people to state insults. And it is easy to state opinions, but much more difficult to back those opinions up with pictures, references, or weblinks. Only a very few contributors to this thread have ever stated their references and or shown pictures and or weblinks to information. Anyway, personally, for today I have had enough of this forum!

Thanks Brian, Once again you are great at belittling, berating, and ridiculing. Let’s see what others have to say about the comparison of those tsuba

Yes Derek, seriously. Let’s review. I have included the picture of what I believe to be a cast iron tsuba. I have also included a picture of a hand forged tsuba with the same motif as the cast iron tsuba (Florian in one of his posts stated it was of poor quality - to me that tsuba appears that it was corroded and maybe a little overcleaned). Now, let us compare the two. The (what I believe to be) a cast iron tsuba shows many tiny pits on the seppa-dai and other places (which I circled in red). You don’t see that same pitting on the hand forged tsuba. I believe those small pits are caused by sand casting. Also, you notice no good or deep tagane-ato punch marks around the nakago-ana of the cast tsuba. That is because if those tagane-ato punch marks were put into the cast iron tsuba (as they are put into the hand forged tsuba) the cast iron tsuba would crack and break. Also notice the area of the water wheel (circled in blue). On the cast iron tsuba the water wheel area (in some places) is not flat. That is because that tsuba was cast. On the hand forged tsuba that area is flat because the entire tsuba was hand hammered flat before carving in the details. Just my opinions. And of course I could be completely wrong. But I have described what I see. Others have their own opinions (and I am certain that they will tell me!). Addendum- If both these tsuba came up for sale (at $150 U.S. or under, which is my limit of spending) I would purchase the tsuba shown in the second picture (the one that there is no question that it is hand forged).

Rokujuro, You stated in part of your post that- “In addition to that, I find it very unreasonable to believe that an 'unfinished' TSUBA was sold/released from a workshop, with clear signs of hammer-work on the SEPPA-DAI (which is a proof that it is not cast!),” Well, what you see as hammer marks on the SEPPA-DIA I see as casting flaws created by sand casting. So, your proof that it is not cast may be incorrect. Just a difference of opinions. The only way to know for sure would be to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing, otherwise everything is just everybody’s best guess.

Thanks, Hokke. I agree with you that this tsuba is unfinished. I quote part of your post- “It seems reasonable to me that what we have here is a an "unfinished" tsuba. Not unfinished as in incomplete, but unfinished with respect to the level of the finishing process. This could have been for a variety of reasons like cost, time, customer request or injury.” Although it is my opinion that this is an unfinished cast iron tsuba. Even though there are nice and crisp areas of the cast tsuba that have been filed down, the other areas were not filed or finished. I posted this on Sunday at 12:17 pm (it is on page 19) and is from a dealer in Japan- “When the seam mark was filed off, it is a little difficult to figure out the trick of cast iron tsuba.” For perhaps some of the reasons you mentioned above, the cast iron tsuba was never fully finished. Of course, this is all just my best guess. I don’t think we will ever know for sure if that is a cast iron tsuba or hand forged tsuba. And since you stated in your post that you are unfamiliar with the casting of iron, I found a youtube website that explains how cast iron Japanese kettles are molded and made in the traditional way. It is interesting and is listed below (there are many more videos and websites about this but I just included one)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrJC8D3eEs

Hi Derek! So I believe what you are saying is that this is a low quality tsuba and those discrepancies I noted and outlined in blue in my previous post were hand cut on a hand forged tsuba? Well, I appreciate your opinion.

Hi Florian, Thanks for your post and your opinions about that tsuba. I get it and understand what you are saying. I quote part of your post below- “I don’t think it’s cast. As I wrote in the other thread my idea is that this Tsuba is just in the state of an intermediate step. The basic form was produced but a final exact execution is missing for what reason ever. Maybe a customer was fond of the blurred design.” I don’t know. It just looks cast iron to me with several discrepancies and inconsistencies (and I am probably wrong). I have included a picture of that tsuba with the discrepancies outlined in blue. Notice the cutouts on the railing of the bridge are of different sizes and shapes. The handles of some of the buckets are of different sizes. The cutouts of the waterwheel are of different sizes and shapes. It just looks to me like this thing was made by pouring cast iron into a mold. If you look at the same motif tsuba included in the other pictures on my previous post (which I believe are hand forged and hand cut), you won’t find those discrepancies. Anyway, I don’t know. This is just my best guess!

So here are some pictures of some tsuba with the same motif from this forum thread- https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/52786-silver-ring-in-tsubas/ It looks to me like the first picture shown is a cast iron tsuba and it is not done very welll and shows many inconsistencies (my opinion). Whether the tsuba shown in the first picture here (which I believe is cast iron) was made in the Edo period or not is something that can probably never be determined. But the fact that it has a fukurin on it and sekigane in the nakago-ana is of interest. The other pictures shown are examples from that thread of well made hand forged and hand cut tsuba (also my opinion) with the same motif. Thoughts?

Off topic but- I don’t know. Does anybody else see a possible cast iron tsuba here? Or I may need new glasses (which is a major possibility)!