Steves87

Well, I found this on instagram, and if the owner wishes me to remove the photos, I will; however, I thought it was an important bit of info as it has answered a question I have had for a long time, being.... what is the condition on the back of a Tsuba used as decoration??? It is unfortunate that the box is in that state (I have a strange affection to boxes), but, it is great that the Tsuba is pretty ok.

Without knowing for sure Dale, I'd say it was definitely this: https://www.zacke.at...suba/?lot=15199&sd=1

Thanks Jean, I'm pretty sure it is too! I came across this one today too.... not Tsuba, but another repurpose of Tosogu. https://www.ebay.com...r=artemis&media=COPY

Have we posted the candle stick holder yet? https://www.ebay.com...r=artemis&media=COPY Judging by the underside, it was a Tsuba at some point.... there is remnant thatching both sides.... was it originally a wangata though, or bent to purpose??

You are not wrong, but like I said before, there is some obvious deception out there; additionally, I know of examples for this right now, and especially on theebay.... the same papered (or not) guard on multiple sellers sites. This is usually a case of 3rd party selling... someone has access to it cheap, and advertises it at a higher price elsewhere. If you buy it, the 3rd party seller purchases it from their primary source, and sends it to you, all the while, pocketing the difference in coin. Im sure there are even unwitting 4th party sellers too. I have mostly proven this theory from taking a punt and purchasing from the lowest offering ad, I know I shouldn't support this, but there are lots of "factors" involved For me personally. Sometimes the sellers are caught out by not realising the primary ad is finished, but they have always reimbursed the money instantly (as I think this 3rd partying goes against auction site policies). Ultimately, the majority of the guards will exist for sale somewhere, it is just a matter of who is the primary seller, and if "they" aren't, then where is it advertised cheaper? This is a completely different kettle of fish to cast guards, and only similar when concerned with blatant deception element.... like advertising a casting as an original.

I get the general premise of what you are saying, in terms of the cast fakes and modern replicas. We got to remember though, we collectors here are actually quite the minority when it comes to the world of "Tsuba". The Kenjutsu/Iaido scene is huge worldwide and reaches far beyond us (definitely in my neck of the woods). These cast/modern repro items on online auction sites are a considerably larger market than the authentic antique/contemporary Tsuba market, and are really concentrated on the kenjutsu/Iaido world. Like I have said in other threads, people like to mod their iaito and Tamashigiri blades, and I have modded literally hundreds throughout the years. Unfortunately, the antique noobs (and some intermediates) get caught between the markets. Yes there is some blatant deception, but I would also say there is equal part from sellers just having "no clue".

I always imagined it would be more like a needle in a needle stack.... 1000 Tsuba looking basically the same, yet, different??

That was an excellent post, thank you. I had a chuckle at a couple of questions at the end, they came across with a "loaded" type feel.

Ahh, the good old Mustache Tsuba! Dale (Spartancrest) will be in shortly to give you the rundown, but unfortunately, this is quite a common cast Tsuba. Your example is one of the better, more well-formed ones though.

Well, I'm commenting after seeing the newer, slightly better pictures, and I realise who I am disagreeing with, regardless, I'm not convinced this is cast. I think this guard has been cleaned from a bad state, and subsequently coated (painted?) with something; hence, making it appear cast. The design is not the same front and back (although close), the nakago ana has been modified on the lower right hand corner (widened), and this is creating most of the visual issues of the seppa dai. I think it is also encroaching on the mei, not the mei encroaching on the ana. The tenzogan looks to not be part of the base material, and I suspect any non-coloured examples are from the coating being missed when they were all otherwise scraped back. This might account for the tenzogan deformations as noted elsewhere. The wave at the 1 to 2 o'clock position on the front, appears to be missing one of the tenzogan dots, leaving a hole. The mimi has decoration which if nothing else, shows signs of hand finished work... and back on the design.... I admit I have not seen every single cast example out there, but I've spent a lot of years modifying literally hundreds of modern dojo used swords with "authentic looking" Tsuba, and I've never come across this design before. Ive fitted many antique cast tsuba, as well as some higher end more modern handmade ones. CAS Hanwei did bring out some Tsuba 10-20 years ago with legitimate tenzogan, but most were dragon themed, and none were signed in modern, or legitimate edo smith, mei. It is always hard appraising through pictures, and being where I am, it's all I can do.... the nearest Tsuba vendor or show, is literally 3000km away

Cool, and yes, no real disagreement here. I think what is throwing me off, is the lack of "construction line". In a couple of places it does appear a possibility, but in other views, I'd swear it is solid. Should there be more definitive lines/joints? Is there a possibility that these are effectively masked somehow, or just a product of photo quality? Not trying to cause issues, I'm just trying to get to grips with my own knowledge, as well as build on my "photo vs in-hand" appraisals.

Very interesting thread, so thank you to all for the valuable input! I must admit, I am a bit "stuck" with the layered construction. I understand the usual Sanmei construction, and I see what Ford is referring to in the first picture, but every other picture appears to be solid construction (nd also at the mimi). This could, either way, be the lighting in the photos showing/or not showing details, and I admit, solid construction makes the fact of the edged Shakudo colouring a bit strange, where it is, but.... For my own piece of mind of seeing or not seeing something, could you please take some pictures of the inner surfaces and outer edges (nakago-ana, hitsu-ana, and mimi)?

Maybe.... I'd wonder if the black pigment leaches once submerged in warm liquid? There are some well known ebay sellers who's Tsuba have this finish look. I know that once submerged, the colour from these seller's guards, does leach away, too. I imagine that solution is far too concentrated for direct use. There are other natural methods to get very mild tannic acid solutions for use after cleaning, and I have seen posts from FH on this forum which mention these. Also, I think Dale has also posted this link in the gun bluing thread

Wangata? Or are my eyes playing tricks? The guard is excellent!

As per my instagram comment, great job, that is excellent... and congratulations!!! I have seen a few other smiths posting similar entries (to the awards ceremony) is there a gallery of all entries we may be able to view? I have only seen excellent guards so far.

I find it odd that the patina of the ategane came off so easily.... if I had to take a guess, I'd say it was not an original patination, or it had been "coated" with something to simulate a shakudo patina. In all my years of "Tsuba cleaning", I have never seen a proper shakudo patina wear off from a light soapy brushing. I like the guard in general, but I personally wouldnt make a comment on anything else based off the photos.

In light of the post from George, I believe this below Tsuba is of the same theme (although not Choshu). Apart from the structure which appears to have the similar Chinese architecture, this guard also has the similar poled structure which in this case, seems to be flying banners. This guard is from the Gary Murtha collection, there are a few more photos of it within his books.

Yep, Artur is reliable and good to deal with... has a high standard of Tsuka too (I didn't know about the injury). His Flickr account https://www.flickr.c..._drogamiecza/albums/ is best to see his stock

Good job! I think it is very important to know what goes into making Tsuba, even the most basic of designs. When I hear people dismissing guards (mostly on the facebook), I wonder if they themselves have ever attempted to manufacture one. The time and effort required is not insignificant, and to dismiss a Tsuba that not only contains someone's skill (regardless of level), but has also lasted the element of time, is disrespectful. Attempting to make Tsuba is also highly educational within the area of recognising fake/cast Tsuba while purchasing. In experimenting with as many techniques as possible, you become aware of what hand made details should look like, and what is/isn't inlayed, but just gilded. A few of my attempts below, not exactly top quality, but all cutting, filing, carving and inlay done by hand.

Well, I generally wouldn't go against the opinion of Grey, who has probably handled thousands of guards over the years, and I also would have said cast based on those pictures, however, I believe there is a very good chance that this is not cast, and just heavily de-conditioned. There are some anomalies within the sukashi, but it isn't consistent with all of them and doesn't appear within the hitsu ana, or nakago ana (which doesn't appear to be modified through mounting). I believe this inner sukashi condition is in line with the general deconditioned state of the Tsuba and it would be odd to clean up some, but not all, at the time of manufacture. The seppa dai area does look a little off in shape, but it isn't the first time a less than perfect, off centre, or odd shaped nakago ana has popped up on a legitimate Tsuba. The odd darkish arch at the top of the seppa dai is likely a shadow from a smaller mis-shaped seppa, and I would guess that this guard has been "cleaned up" at some point, from a much worse state. I have an example of similar design and style which I am about 98% certain is not cast, and this is the main reason for my doubts on the above Tsuba (based on those photos). My example is pretty similar in execution, it does have ten zogan, but otherwise you can see that the two are based on a typical theme, with the fish and waves being similarly shaped and placed, but different enough not to be cast. My stance on the cast debate in other threads is complicated to say the least, and I wont state it, but I do believe the "cast" label is thrown about as incorrectly as the Shoami label is. There are no doubts that cast items have manufacturing faults, but SOME of these can be replicated through general de-condioning (flat surface anomalies, for example).

They do look a little withered. I realise it is not the case, but I like to think it is a message that the wearer and their sword will bring an end to the renewal and optimism that Sakura brings, to one's adversary.

That was great, thank you very much for posting the video. I got quite a lot of new information out of it. I was especially interested to hear about the carved bone souvenirs.

Oh, I remember this thread! I finally have a guard to contribute towards it

we need a "deal of the decade" section, just so this can be on top!

I was going to bid on that one (original post), seeing your bid already there put me off! Congratulations on getting it, it is a real winner. I'm not in the market right now, but I thought the forum might be interested in this guard below. The pictures are a little sub par, but it otherwise looks ok (just one dubious spoke). Hopefully a forum member can put it to a good home https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/235026837329?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=pNiwG9EHS5i&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=OjC70kueRUa&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY