Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Already discussed in another thread about Hizen swords. I've had a chat with Dr. Coutihno about wootz for this and another article he wrote for JSSUS, the latter discussing the 3 different approaches to smithing in the west, middle east and far east.

I'm very touched by this story. Italian submarines had the same task in the same period, but because of Italy surrendered in September, 8 1943 they were included in the "Monsun" german fleet and, after the Germany's surrender, into the IJN. The crews were either integrated in the German (and then Japanese) Navy or interned, even by US army after Japan's surrender accordingly with their decision to join the fascist Repubblica Sociale Italiana or not. A very, very few survived this modern Odissey. There should be a survivor of one of the italian submarines (the "Cappellini", then U-IT-24, then, I-503) still alive in Japan, Raffaello Sanzio. He've got his wife's family name, Kobayashi. It's not my relative, but might have known my grandfather's brother.

Lindus, guess the Swastika fooled you. You posted the pics thinking at the Hindu swastika while this might have been effectively the reversed nazi one as you suggested elsewhere. I'm interested in the whole pic of the flower the Swastika is on. It might be in effect not a Chrisantemum but "The Order of the rising Sun" emblema and the Kikusui on top of the Tachikake is interesting as well. This might be a military related/issued item I've never seen. Would you like to send me a pic here ? tsubame1@tin.it

Thanks Lindus. I whish my grandfather's brother had such a present to bring back.

This is the point Piers. Wootz is freed by the oxigen-free-and-tight crucible only when entirely cooled. Hence he retains the shape of the crucible, often half-spherical. It's re-heaten at relatively low temperatures only for smithing out the blade shape and it's an hard task. More, it's better to have enough steel to produce the blade from a single ingot (not much loss of material in the process) because to weld two ingots together might be impossible without ruining the "watering" with the too high temperatures needed by the welding process.

There is an italian that has dedicated studies to U-178 far East trip and that helped to label these pics. you should get in touch with him. I'm PMing you with details. BTW the brother of my grandfather was in italian submarine fleet during WWII . Hereunder an interesting pic. Translation (to be enhanched by Moriyama-san, Morita-san or somebodyelse). Together with Wulf (???) a submarine fighter (belonging to?) our ally armed force, both on Atlantic ocean and on Indian ocean (fought?) aggressively on the way, we wish you luck and health. in Penang, Imperial Japanese Navy Noguchi (??) Wulf (if correctly translated) might be the name/emblem of another U-boot of the Monsun force as well as the name of a crew's member.

Hi Lindus. A relative of somebody of the crew has given these pics from a personal album. A lunch/dinner with Japanese personel. The presentation day ? labeled Garden celebration in the Botani garden in Penang October 1943: On board : U-178 crew just back home. See the Swan insigna: Seems they carried back rubber :

Hi Lindus. Assuming you're asking about U-178 stations only and not about all german submarines in the area, and hoping you've not already found it, hereunder a link to the patrols U-178 made. Hope it helps. http://uboat.net/boats/patrols/u178.html

hehehe.... you nailed me.

Wootz ingots (unworked) should look like these ones posted by Mr. Pringles in another board. I had a pic of a more rounded one, almost perfectly emispherical, but I can't find it anymore. I guess the shape of the crucible could have changed from different locations. We should remember that crucible steel doesn't always means wootz, so the shape of the ingot is not definitive evidence. As suggested metallographic studies are the best way to sort out the matter. For comparison mr Pringles cites a paper by Verhoeven that summarizes data on genuine wootz as follows (to compare with Japanese data given in other posts/threads): Carbon 1.0-1.87% Manganese 0.005-0.014% Silica 0.005-0.11% Sulphur 0.007-0.038% Phosphorus 0.026-0.206% Copper 0.03-0.18% Cromium <0.01% Nichel 0.008-0.07% originally were : http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/98 ... -9809.html

No problem. I can wait the next one for your box. :D BTW, it got a nice patina, but this mean you'll never know if it's wootz. As it has been highlighted before, wootz pattern needs an etching procedure to be enhanced at its best.

Piers, an heck of a present. My birthday is September 2 :lol:

This is good to watch at how wootz looks like compared to folded steel, even if the crossguard doesn't show a proper Hada.

As a picture is better than 10.000 words, hereunder seven different types of steel on the same Moghul blade. Includes pattern-welded Damascus but no Wootz here.

I would like to add a comment about the possible use of Nanban steel in late Muromachi and very early Edo. For the very nature of this board we focus on blades only, hence the duscussions about the use of imported steel in Kawagane etc. But the swords in the timeframe mentioned represent only a part of the tremendous need for steel of that period, and maybe not even the greatest part. We should remember the vast armies of Ashigaru and the incredible amount of handguns produced in those years. Can't remember the source but I'm pretty sure to have read Japan at those times had the highest guns-per-capita ratio in the world and this ratio was achieved in an astonishingly short period of time. To this we have to add the need of steel for Ashigaru's armor. Even if far to be as complete as the good ones, an Ashigaru armor still required a good amount of steel. My guess is that most of the imported steel, whatever the provenance and quality, was used for these items, especially guns. At a certain point of Korea's invasion it was specifically required that *all* reinforcements had to be equipped with Teppo. This higlight the importance such weapons had at the time. IMHO the historical context in the whole should be considered in discussing the matter. Of course this doesn't exclude the use of imported steel for swords or the blending of wootz with tamahagane to increase the carbon content, just gives us a possible different priority list as far as steel need goes. We know for a fact that some Nakago inscriptions are mentioning the use of an old gun barrel steel to produce the blade, considering it of very good quality. It is possible that the high reputation of Nanbantetsu is not due *exclusively* to its performances under the form of a blade but for other reasons as well. Just a possibility I think we should add to all the others considerations.

Sorry for misspelling and late reply (I was travelling), yes, Hyotan, gourd. it's the shape the ingot takes when the crucible is cleaned out. Small ingot, small crucible. Not all crucible steels are wootz/pulad. AFAIK wootz/pulad/bulat used for persian and indo-persian swords and gun barrels from the Mogul period onward had (some are still existant) the shape of an almost perfect semi-sphere with the top section flattened. This is due to the fact that steel had been left slowly cooling into the crucible and then the same has been destroied to free the material. The gourd shape seems like the crucible has been cleaned into another expendible item, giving to the ingot the shape of a "gourd" cut longitudinally. The surface of the cooling steel was much larger suggesting a quicker cooling and different type of (crucible) steel. Of course this definitively doesn't mean that the other shapes can't be linked to wootz/pulad, but it's another thing that let me hesitant to suggest any definitive attribution to "this was wootz while this wasn't" when talking about nanbantetsu. Of course ingots can be shaped in any more transportable form under the cooling but smithing an ingot of Wootz has been described as "wrestling a bear" so much it's difficult.. These are good reading : http://materials.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/f_quest ... indiaw.htm

My pleasure, Stephen.

Back in Japan eh, Piers ? Guess you're not expectiong "Yotan" as answer... Guess at a certain point Nanbantetsu begun sorta of collectible. This Tsuba looks more like an ingot than an handguard :

Like Italy. My suggestion is : be extra-sure about import laws in your *area* and what is possibly happening to you in case an infringement occur, even if in good faith. If Greece is like Italy (One Face, One Race :D ) laws are interpreted differently from region to region.

I've forgot to mention lateral stresses. http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_097.htm

Hagire can't be safely assigned to any of the possible explanations we have (hardening, shock in battle, polishing) unless it's noticed very soon after it happens. On a pure theoretical level, you're right. Hagire is the revelation of a weak point in the blade, weak point produced during the smithing process. The problem is that weak points are not all of the same weakness. *ALL* swords, even the strongest, have such weak points and, granted, they'll reveal them if stressed enough. But a good sword should have the level of the weakest point higher then a poor one. Like a chain, the blade is as resistant as her weakest point. The quenching is an extremely stressing process and many blades fails at this point. But if the hagire is big enough to be visible during the polishing process (usually it is) the blade is discarded. Successive very poor Togi might as well produce hagire, but it need one of the following conditions : either the blade has (for any reason) already a very weak point close to crack or the Togishi is a master dog. First occurrence being the most common, due to stresses received during the sword life, even good Togishi might encounter this unfortunate case. However this weak point, if not detectable after the first polish,even rough, is at a molecular level until it's not revealed by an external event. On the other hand, the blade can also be so well made that this weak point reveal itself only after a major trauma as a direct strike against a sturdy Kabuto, or hitting a stone because the target eluded the strike, or due to the force used when freeing the blade entrapped in wood, action that stress the blade in the opposite direction it's supposed to work. Parring a strong strike with the Mune also produce stress to the Ha (remember how the smiths demolish the unwanted blades ?). All these thing can reveal a weak point, in fact producing an hagire that *wasn't there before*. Professional soldiers (and Samurai *were* professionals) always check the healt status of their equipment and a sword with evident Hagire wouldn't be carried (in most cases, exceptions occurs everywhere). The present day enhanched polishing tecniques might tell us that many swords were carried when (or even if) cracked, but the reasons for this crack can't be limited to poor smithing not revealed by the polishing in the past centuries. IMHO.

Enphasis is mine. Also the period matches with Europe's and Chinas's suggestions given hereabove. Would like to add that Toshin Sugata, nakago sugata, nakago finishing, Kissaki shape and mekugiana dimension and position of the above mentioned blade all address to a blade earlier than 13th century. The attribution of the date is given by a document found together with the blade, but if this was made as a shrine offer and well maintained before to be "buried" inside the Buddha, we can't say. The original polish could have been indeed earlier but it was decided to stay safe and considering it as made at the moment of dedication.

Informations on this very Tanto polishing confirmed by both Suenaga and Masakuni. Can't say about the speculations mentioned. Seems to remember it was in the oldest surviving shirasaya ever, but I'm at work and can't check. And just as an add-on, similar level of polishing were achieved in the IX century C.E. (and before) not only in China but even in Europe. NOT the same level of polishing of today's top ones but still more than enough to consider them as a way to appreciate the finest swords under an artistical point of view.

Darcy, I suggest you to get in touch with Markus for anything you need to be translated. Seriously. Best.