Curran

> major Wakayama only gives one reference example, but it does not compare well to yours. You might want to turn to other texts to try to find more examples of this signature and review the workmanship of such signed pieces. Then decide whether to submit to the NBTHK.

Mike, Take new photos in brighter (sun)light if at all possible. Much less macro. It is a little ko-shoami that was probably on an uchigatana or short blade. I recall similar a one in the Haynes Catalogs, though I sold mine. It hasn't been repatinated / dipped. On the sekigane: Lacquer? Pine? Probably the whole tsuba, possibly the koshirae it originally went on was shellacked.

That duncecap in hand is now on my head. I stopped at the Haynes entry on Natsuo, not knowing that Natsuo signs like that. I didn't recognize the first character as his and hoped it was some student that had taken the second character of his name. Should have taken the extra step to look up actual examples in Wakayama. Yes.... looking darn gimei from workmanship to signature. Just like the chinatown "Prado" wallet of Canal Street fame.

It is moments like these when I appreciate my 6th grade Isaac Newton reading of "because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" (ie. Haynes Index). No, I don't think Koken or Hirotake are the right sidestreets. Thank you for this insight, as I can see it. I was headed off down other avenues that were less productive. I am hoping one of our Japanese fluent members and Haynes decipher this mini mystery. This little tsuba seems to me entirely a knockoff of Natsuo workmanship. It has his perspective, but not the depth of his skill. Kinda a knockoff of the one in the Boston Museum and a few others I have seen. I'm hoping it is one of his many students, instead of a gimei of some sort. The tsuba has some patina damage, but the design is pretty and mostly well done. It bugs the whiskers off me that I cannot read what looks to be a rather simple signature.

tool envy. I must be getting old.

With dunce cap in hand. The first character should be simple, but I am not sure if it is a variation of SHI, no, kore, yuki, yoshi OR... something else. I suspect the tsuba is either a gimei or a student work. The workmanship is not on par with that of the famous artist it mimics, but he did have many students. The translation of the mei will determine if student work, or just gimei. Sincere thanks in advance.

I suddenly know what I want for my birthday. What a geek. I don't know much past diddly about photography, but can say all ko-mino photography is for crap. Even that in the books. Everything looks so flat and distorted. Much of it looses the deep angled undercutting element. Thus my own photos of the ko-mino menuki are also 'for crap'. Richard George's halfdome photography might be the only thing able to put it in to proper perspective. As how to capture the range of color in some of the ko-goto shakudo while it passes through different angles of light: I'm sure there is a similar approach to RG's might work it you added the extra dimension of variable light sources.

Rarity, age, condition, workmanship. As Pete said a while back in regards to a tea cup, some of us have that 'ah ha' moment. [FYI Pete, I recall an Isaac Asimov short story about the fate of the world being bought/saved for the sake of a tea cup] I've seen the ko-goto kozuka. Photos mostly fail such things. Put it eye level on a table and look at it, and you might feel very different. The ko-mino flowers stand up like trees on a plain. ~ah-ha, or Not. To each their own. I'd own that kozuka, if I could. Have seriously thought about it a few times and watched the yen rate. I also saw a set of ko-goto gold crab menuki (by Sojo?) in the NY Met, and had that ~ah-ha moment. Living coastal and even chasing small crabs out of the house and off the dock now and then, those gold ones rivaled the real ones. Or beat. No mud on them, but probably less tasty. As others probably have said before, it is something you sort of need to see in person. Attached is an image of a ko-mino menuki with Juyo papers. About 500 years or so old. On my screen, the image is about 20 times the size of the actual menuki. For relative perspective, see the threads of the silk it rests on. Putting it under higher magnification, I saw workmanship (undercuts and rounding, piercing of the central penta) that I cannot even see in this photo. Also, it is nearly as deep as its top to bottom width. If you had an image from the side, it is like the profile of a major city. Most people may prefer something larger and louder. It might be easy to blow past these in a meibutsu room, only looking briefly at the small things without the help of magnification. As if they menuki weren't small enough, they were mounted in a smaller than standard box. Of course, inside another standard size box. Attached should be a macro shot of it in its box at about 3x or 5x?

#1- Owari or Kanayama. Both Attributions = Owari made (think Nagoya area) #2- Akasaka = Akasaka (Edo/Yedo/Tokyo area) The others are a bit more difficult. IF #5 is agreed as Myochin, THEN see the long long long Myochin Family of armor makers. Not 100% stationary place, or agreed upon manufacture. More a type of attribution, just like the recent Tokei sukashi attribution thread in another section. #3, #4 get much more vague. I have seen an identical #4 with old NBTHK green papers, but cannot remember the attribution. #3 could be attributed based upon shape and what might be inferred in hand. It is beyond me to do so in a photo. Others like Ford or Dr. L might have an opinion. Or Mr. Helm might venture a consult with the NTHK opinion, since this is for an academic museum related pro bono effort. That might be a bit too much to ask, so I beg forgiveness in advance. I truly wish #1 was for sale. I sold my similar one years ago in the belief that I would someday buy a Juyo example. That was unrealistic. My favorite ex-Jim Gilbert one was snapped up by another forum member here, so finding another unpapered but obvious Is What It Is one has eluded me. You have shown us some interesting ones over the course of all your work, and this is one that makes me a bit sad to think is hidden stored in the back rooms of a museum.

Yes. Very similar design. Outer mimi finished different. Don't think it should be attributed as Akasaka on design alone, but start there and look for the other evidence. #1- Wow. Owari or Kanayama depending on whom you ask. #3- ? #4- I've seen these papered several ways, depending upon when papered. Safest to say "shoami'. Theme is of a demon-devil-imp. A fluent member can probably offer up the name, as I think it is something more specific than Oni. One of these spaghetti limbed martians: http://www.t-touken.com/wp-content/uplo ... 2/0024.jpg #5- I carried an almost identical looking one of these to the 2006 NTHK shinsa in NY-NJ for a Reverend, and the NTHK gave it a Myochin attribution. That was their call. Conlude: #1, 2, 4, and 5 not Swordsmith tsubas.

Okay, to try and get this back on track: (1) Some reserve the right to doubt the Christian origins. (2) Others see it as a symbol simple and multicultural enough to crop up on its own in several forms. (3) Maybe a few only a tokei sukashi. As to the sidetrack than is page 3, just a photo attached with the intent of arguing #2 in that case. Not attempt to drag the Native Americans into it. It would be best to guess that was the inspiration point for the pre-WW2 Canadian Women's Hockey Team Symbol seen here.

From personal experience having lived, worked, studied, and traveled in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Chile - having already seen those same symbols in Japan when an exchange student- I can only agree with Fred. Personally, my own beliefs are not such that I might feel biased on the matter. Hyper-Neutrality can be a very important thing. Northern Irish / Southeastern Scots heritage families have this as a dangerous riptide current, and are very careful of it. This design became very popular and some artist might indeed have seen it as a tokei theme. Gears and whatnot. I feel the design did start somewhere with a religious christian theme. That is my 2 cents. Saw too many historical traces of it in Japan even in 1989.

Better to call it an exceptionally _vague_ attribution.

While science can often be an Art, Art is rarely a science. And when it comes to Japanese Art: and talk it out. Your answer may change tomorrow, and be changed again in a decade. The KTK 2006 article is a good one. Usually there is more information published in Japanese somewhere, but in this particular instance I do not think you will find it. Have you asked the author of the 2006 article? He is a list member here. Though not always 100% in agreement with him, I greatly respect his opinion in general. In this specific topic, I'd defer to him 1000% as the PhD student to my undergraduate Jr. Seminar level of understanding.

Almost always this shape of tsuba is Norisuke (Bishu Owari). Before people think that Owari tsuba = iron tsuba ..... please remember that also ko-Mino, Mino, and Kozenji workers were all there. Very skilled kinko workers. Now.... to create further headache.... see this tsuba. It has NTHK papers to Hirado Kunishige. Occam's Razor call says Kunishige. I can argue Norisuke, but cannot convince myself 100% and probably most tsuba collectors only 50%. It is a bit known that I am a Norisuke fan, therefore may just be seeing what I want to see. Conclusion: if NTHK opinion is to be upheld here, we infer that this size/shape isn't specifically Norisuke.

James has answered the question very well. Perhaps not for Nihonto, but for some other collecting interests I will see what use I can make of those programs. Thank you.

The one in the collection predates 1915, which is just shy of 100 years ago minimum age. Thus, I don't know if I'd regard it as contemporary. Age of 'antique' often described as >= 100 year. Therefore, cutting it close on % of being 'contemporary' by certain definitions. I have seen contemporary tsuba of this design, but they are rather obvious. Then again, I've dealt with things where 100 years is but the blink of an eye- thus depends on what you really mean by contemporary. It doesn't matter much. If you don't like it, or don't trust it, don't buy it. I disagree with the Haynes opinion that you share in this particular instance, but it is a split of hairs and Haynes has certainly earned his stripes more than I have. I don't think contemporary, but I don't think much of the design or workmanship. Therefore not for me, which is not so different than not buying into a contemporary piece.

Gabriel, I just arrived here to post the same thing. I have seen this design so many times, usually as kodai Higo or similar workmanship. While 90% of the Church collection doesn't impress me much, the other 10% comprises pieces I would want to study (6%), designs never seen before (3%), and those I wish I could own (1%). Such old large collections are wonderful. There are 20 pieces in the Boston collection I could spend a proper day studying and committing to memory 20 minutes each.

9.5 cm round. Choco-pie (Moonpie) anyone? John, thanks for the description read. I admit I had not read it. 'Post 1853' Kenjo (Kyoto specific shop production) is an interesting attribution by the seller.

That is perfect.

Haven't seen this before: http://page14.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... s354746176

Tom, Thank you. I know what I seek, but it was difficult to find without the correct terms. The link and term 組紐 opened the gates significantly. While at it, I also enjoyed this video, watching this man's spider dexterity: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ3ODM0MTU2.html

~Finding something appropriate of the sort we see in Edo no Tanto Koshirae book examples such as those on page 15, 16, 48, 54. After 80+ or so sites, it eludes. Beyond the basic ones, it is much more difficult to do than you might imagine. I can understand that higher end sageo, like higher end fittings boxes, may have become something few of the dealers want to source or inventory anymore- or at least list on their websites at all. One of the people who PM'd me reminded me of one person to contact, but I was hoping for a Japanese link I had missed.

Having already looked over ebay, I am in search of better quality sageo. I need one probably about 90cm in length, for a very worthy o-tanto with koshirae. Preferably gold, white, or mix of the two. As it is a Higo koshirae, a doeskin sageo also would be appropriate. Anyone able to point me at good Japanese resource? Very sincere thanks in advance for any help.